Video demo of the warp prototype

General
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[quote=“cybercritic, post:59, topic:709”]
Just a quick question @JB47394, why is the ship not accelerating and your “speed” remains constant when the engine is on? That’s not Newtonian…[/quote]

The prototype maintains newtonian motion, but it doesn’t do it with rockets. The engine being “on” doesn’t mean that it’s trying to change the ship’s velocity. Because it’s not a rocket. It’s a device that operates on advanced physics involving quantum teleportation along a carefully-maintained vector. It just so happens that that vector can only be modified in ways that exactly match newtonian motion.

What a coincidence.

Announced above, but not included in the base post. It is a reply to a concern that @Lomsor had and I didn’t want people thinking that thrusters are part of the prototype’s fiction.

[quote=“cybercritic, post:59, topic:709”]
Only way this makes sense is if that “engine power” setting is really just a velocity indicator relative to nothing, then it is Newtonian.[/quote]

Please read the portion of the thread where we discuss terminology. Specifically where we talk about FOMPS.

I wouldn’t even try. Perhaps you could suggest sample explanations.

The prototype’s control system is entirely by design. Ships turn at a limited command rate and accelerate linearly with equal authority in four directions.

That is the world of rockets, RCS and limited energy budgets. In a world of casual interplanetary travel, such things are as antiquated as stone tools. The prototype’s ships are so massively more capable than rocket ships that if you want to go somewhere, you drive straight there.

Note that ships can be put into orbits, but there’s absolutely no reason to fool with them.

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That FOMPS, right now really looks like the length of your direction/velocity vector modulated by the gravitational interference formula. What you don’t seem to understand is that you don’t need to do anything to maintain your velocity in the Newtonian model, in space. Having the engine “on”, putting energy into your movement and not accelerating breaks Newtonian laws.

The system does make sense when you consider that only when the W-S keys are pressed the engine is actually applying energy for movement. Problem being is that you can’t explain the gravitational interference in this model. However having the engine differ it’s thrust output based on gravitational interference is perfectly logical.

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Yes that is basically what it is.

JB understands that perfectly. If you don’t think he does then you don’t understand his videos.

You understand that it is a FOMPS indicator rather than a power indicator… So what is it in the videos that suggests power is being used to maintain velocity?

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Yes, that is exactly the problem, I don’t think JB thinks of it as basically a velocity indicator, it’s the power setting of the warp drive to him. And if it is in fact a power setting and the engine is “on”, then the system is not Newtonian.

That is my only concern really, because with that “power setting” being a fancy velocity indicator rather than some magical setting on the warp drive, the system makes perfect sense.

He also talks of that setting interchangeably as speed and power, that’s just asking for confusion.

That adds to the confusion.

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The ‘engine’ being ‘on’ does not mean it’s exerting thrust,

The issue is the magic. As disruption decreases your speed increases without any control input.
If you were disrupted and the disruption instantly disappeared, your speed would instantly be higher with no period of acceleration.

I do not like this mechanic,. just as I do not like it in Elite Dangerous (albeit with slight differences). But this is a question of control scheme.

However, the important thing is your FOMPS does not change with distruption. If you ignore the effect of disruption then movement is Newtonian.

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Yeah, you might as well switch the engine that is doing nothing off, save some fuel and retro-fire instead :wink:

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What mechanic do you favor?

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Have disruption affect top speed, but leave it to the player to accelerate (and ‘decelerate’) beneath that limit.
Such acceleration would depend on ship mass.
Ships would obviously be limited to the top speed by disruption so they could be forced slower, but never faster without input (or autopilot).

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This seems to call for a separate throttle so that the player can control the level of acceleration. Perhaps the mouse wheel or the 1-0 keys across the top of the keyboard.

I understand the psychological desire for this, but is there a gameplay scenario that you’re after?

The warp prototype can do what you’re talking about with a little modification. I’d just automatically crank the FOMPS down as the disruption fades, keeping the ship’s velocity constant. It would be a fictional software modification to allow captains to operate at low speeds when in areas of low disruption.

I’d also have to adjust the indicators and provide the throttle.

So I think the base mechanic is fine, but you want a different control scheme.

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The W key is full throttle… No need for anything else other than this:

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Personally, I would find weirder to have the speed decrease but not increase with disruption change.

Btw, and leaving aside any attempt at explaining how such drive works, I would make stopping the warp drive impossible. It brings a discontinuity to the flight model (you have a setting to pretty much stop and go with no transition), and I can’t see how it would make for better gameplay in a way to compensate that.

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If the velocity is maintained, but the warp drive authority increases, then as soon as you hit W, you’ll be off like a shot. That would mean that the only time you get to maintain your speed is when you drift. I would think that being able to control how much acceleration the W key delivers would be useful.

As do I, but if you can fly around in space like a traditional rocket ship with 9g engines, why not? It’s just a control modification for fun. Players could use it or not as they like.

Of course, I’d like to see actual 9g rocketships in the game. They might have 30 minutes of fuel and be dangerous to operate, but they would be true rockets - and be cheap as dirt. A warp-capable ship should be expensive and not necessarily used for everything.

I agree that casually starting and stopping a warp drive would be a real problem. However, consider if starting a warp drive was something that a ship cannot do for itself. It takes a significantly-larger ship to restart a warp drive. Or a space station, city or ship yard. It is something akin to starting a ship’s nuclear reactor.

Nobody would ever shut off their warp drive because they’d just be sitting in space like a space station, unable to move, subject to the tides of the local system. They’d have to wait until a rescue ship came along to get them back into warp and mobile again.

Now imagine a game where warped and non-warped matter cannot interact.

Players would be faced with the challenge of figuring out what to warp and when. Warped matter (e.g ships) can be moved between planets and stars quickly and easily while non-warped matter is what people use at the destinations.

That asteroid mining operation? The ship is warped and must stay warped. But it has probes, drones, tools, explosives, whatever, that need to interact with the asteroid to mine it. It is warped matter and must be unwarped if it is to interact with the asteroid. Certainly the mined material needs to come back to the ship. It is normal matter and must be warped if it is to be transported by the ship.

I think that such a system holds considerable gameplay potential.

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Fantastic work, JB. Makes me wish I hadn’t taken such a hiatus from the old forums!

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Have to agree with NavyFish, seems like quite the shame to have missed your 2d prototype (I remember testing a warp prototype back then, but it was 3d and about navigating through a warp tunnel) …

On the topic of movement …
I think your intercept system works well in the ‘small’ scale, aka normal flight. However, with the size of a galaxy, most piracy induced interception probably would have to happen on a way grander scale, seeing how the chance to just happen to be in the same system as the target seems quite unlikely. So this would probably mean to offer some sort of multisystem scan (let’s say up to 50 ly perhaps?) that only detects people in warp flight, with some sort of lure / baiting system.

My first guess at the lure / baiting system would probably be a *create fake gravitational field that distorts the victims warp tunnel towards you, which probably will end up in the victim breaking out of warp drive (by touching the wall). Once the victim is stranded (and therefore out of fuel preventing instant jumping), your team would then probably have to warp in themselves (unless they REALLY nail the lure and make the victim forcibly drop out of warp really close to them), which also means, that the victim would have enough time to prepare defenses by starting fighters from the nimitz-type carriers (we really need a ship in infinity that is shaped like the nimitz) and so on…

However my guess is, that to make the lure/bait system work, one would have to drastically increase the travel time, so that a relatively small jump actually takes 2 minutes or so.

Another thing is the warp tunnel itself. I don’t know if you’ve played X-Rebirth, but it had this idea of space-highways, a type of corridor that would allow you to travel faster, the more you are flying in the middle of it.
Personally I really like the idea of it. Now, of course, you’re not going to have a premade space highway, but you’re basically creating one whenever you jump with the warp tunnel. How I can see it, this would mean, that the leading ship of a fleet opens the tunnel for everyone, and everyone follows it in its path. Flying straight behind it would mean the least amount of fuel consumption due to ‘riding’ in the wake of the leading ship (which for that purpose probably should be bigger sized), whereas ships closer to the rim of the tunnel ‘feel’ the draft, have to increase their own propulsion, leading towards higher fuel consumption. This could potentially make warping in a fleet less monotone, as your ships have to switch places with each other, so that they all waste ~ the same amount of fuel, Of course this would mean that the warp time had to be increased (as mentioned earlier).
This also could open up the possibility to rip apart a fleet as an attacker. A well placed lure could distort the warp tunnel, leading to the ships on the outer rim probably touching the walls and therefore falling out of warp whereas the rest of the fleet continues. Place a lure after the victim fleet passed you, and the tail of the fleet suddenly would have to accelerate more (since they’re constantly closer to the lure, therefore being constantly more exposed to disturbance), leading to higher fuel per second spent and then probably not making it due to it.

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Yes, ships need long range scanners. In the warp prototype, you could spot a ship jumping between planetary systems from several systems away. That would be enough to go and chase down a ship from quite a ways out.

No lure or baiting system is needed. Pirates do not need to be empowered. If anything, they need to be handicapped. If you want to be a pirate, suck it up and be prepared to face the toughest gameplay in the game.

I read something recently about the design of Star Wars Galaxies where Raph Koster wanted Jedi to be rare and special, keeping the feeling from the movies. Well, how do you make something in a game rare and special? His suggestion was genius; implement permadeath for Jedi. You can have one Jedi character, but you have to play it very carefully because a very nasty future awaits you, very probably resulting in your character’s death. Then that’s it for your Jedi. Try again.

I’d go that route for pirates. You get one character slot for a pirate. When it dies, it dies. Time to try again.

Want to impress people? Show up as an established pirate.

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What’s the difference between a pirate character and a non-pirate character?

How do you implement permadeath for one and not the other?

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Have it linked to a criminal rating? Once your ‘wanted’ level passes a certain point, PERMADEATH INBOUND! :smiley:

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Still only a few systems? Seems kind of unreasonably small if you ask me (to be fair, I did kind of give the impression myself looking at my poor choice of words). In a game where the scale is the universe I’d say something along the lines of .01% or .001% of the whole galaxy per scan perhaps? If you choose the size too small, the player might end up staying in their own little npc bubble, and not meet any other players at all. Some might like it, but if you’re aiming for a multiplayer title it is a rather meh thing …

I just liked the idea of messing with other peoples warp jumps by creating a gravitational distortion that bends their warp tunnel. Thought it would be a neat gaming mechanic…

Also just to clear things up: I hate pirates myself (which makes it quite odd, that I am suggesting mechanics fit for piracy myself… oh well shrug)

about the jedi thing … I think as long as the characters are the heroes of the game, not the space ships, it might as well be a good idea just to hand out jedis randomly. You don’t get to choose if you’re born a jedi, you’re either it or not.

Edit:
I just realized that .01% or .001% of the galaxy are around my previously mentioned 50ly … I seem to need to get my facts about scale straight first, so that I don’t mess up…

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Might could work.

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Have the ripcord system be new tech that pirates haven’t got their hands on yet.
Once you get a low security rating, stations that have ripcord spawn systems refuse to let you tie your ship’s ripcord system to it. - Once you go criminal, you can no longer respawn.

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