Permadeath pirates

[JB47394]

Continuing the discussion from Video demo of the warp prototype:

In that other thread, I mentioned that Raph Koster had an idea to introduce permadeath Jedi to Star Wars Galaxies to make them special. I thought that would be an interesting mechanic for pirates.

An account gets one dedicated slot for a pirate character. Create the character and you start with a really bad ship with some basic survival stuff at a pirate facility. Your character has sufficient faction to try to claw its way out of poverty, but it’s far more likely that you’ll die to the NPCs. Good players will figure out how to get going and get out among the cargo lanes, which is the only way to improve your lot.

Video demo of the warp prototype

Have the ripcord system be new tech that pirates haven’t got their hands on yet.
Once you get a low security rating, stations that have ripcord spawn systems refuse to let you tie your ship’s ripcord system to it. - Once you go criminal, you can no longer respawn.

Yes, that would introduce permadeath for pirates, but it would mean

1. A player could have as many pirates as he cared to and, more importantly,
2. A player could gear up as strongly as the cared to before going pirate.

The permadeath becomes a disincentive, but it makes pirates throw-aways that nobody will get into until they’re ready to throw away their character. Giving them one pirate at a time that must be worked up as a pirate is a completely different experience.

[quote=“TerranAmbass, post:76, topic:709, full:true”]
What’s the difference between a pirate character and a non-pirate character?[/quote]

That’s an excellent question.

Pirates and non-pirates operate in different game environments. Their only material interaction is the act of taking cargo from non-pirates. Pirates dock, trade and operate on pirate bases, dealing with unsavory characters who might turn on them, and whose loyalties are difficult to win. Everything is barter, making small, highly-valuable goods the preferred medium. Pirates are kill-on-sight by all NPC police and navy units. Players can attack them as well for bounties.

If players would just follow the spirit of the rules, that would be enough. Unfortunately players are exploitative, so there have to be lots of draconian rules.

1. Cargo is something that is installed into a ship. It cannot be removed except at its designated destination without damaging it heavily. Perhaps down to pennies on the dollar. A destination could be a ship, a station, a city, etc. None of which may be a pirate facility. Designating a destination is mandatory; no cargo can be loaded without one. Stolen cargo is designated as such, and no non-pirate can touch it ever again.

2. Non-pirates supplying pirates with material aid. Pirates have to remove cargo from ships per the above. Non-pirates can’t dump goods into space. No handing over goods to a pirate. No handing over money to a pirate.

3. Non-pirates supplying pirates with service aid. This is an ugly area. If you shoot a ship and drive off and it is then pirated, you will be fined heavily against the value of anything the pirate gains. There would be proximity and time restrictions on the fine, but the intent is to prevent the pirate’s heavily-geared friends from doing the hard work of subduing a ship, then letting the pirate player go in and pirate cargo.

Non-pirates can still shoot at each other as much as they like, but they can’t take cargo. If a ship that they shot up is jumped by pirates, they’ll trigger that fine. Note that this makes pirates a serious liability to any organization that wants to defend its territory. They really don’t want pirates around.

A griefer exploit is that a non-pirate character could fly into enemy territory, get shot up, then fly out again (per the Durable Ships concept) and go to his pirate buddy who then pirates the cargo and triggers a fine on the ones who were legitimately defending their territory. Or who were legitimately invading another group’s territory. The proximity and time limits are supposed to keep that in check, but griefers will be griefers.

As suggested by the topic, when a pirate’s ship is destroyed, the pirate is dead.

[dekaku]

Those rules need heavy revision. As they stand they are just awful, not just for pirates but for nearly everyone.

For one, you are completely sealing off a major branch of piracy, which is extortion, also known as: I have a huge battle cruiser you are a freighter with no guards, hand over your cargo and I will let you go peacefully.
Not all pirates are there just to blow shit up, they are there to make profit, just as much as you and me. Slap some costs unto ammunition so that destroying a freighter will be worth less than just stealing it’s cargo and you’re good to go.
Miners may want to be able to selectively exhaust their cargo to increase the income per run, when mining mixed ores. On the other hand it won’t be that big a problem, as they won’t be able to mine in the first place, since you’re not allowing to load up without setting a station to unload.
Traders will be discouraged to trade freely or discover new trading routes, as they will only be able to load cargo when they know where to drop it off, so no on-the-fly trading or ‘roaming trader’ scenario.
You’re an archaeologist? Forget having any income. You won’t be able to pick up that artifact anyway, so why bother?
Oh, what was that? General collaboration between players who happen to be friends who just are in different corporations? Yeah, no, not allowing that. How dare they wanting to help each other by sharing their assets?

As I see it your rules would only benefit a single group of players. Hardcore carebear traders who have a set trading route and enjoy doing nothing but running this one route (which is profitable, yes, but also one of the least interesting ways to play the game, only a tad better than mining).

Also just a comment on permadeath: Either make everyone permadeath or no one. No in-between. Jedi were special yes, but as you put it pirates are not special, they are just the worst/least engaging way you can play a game. They don’t get powers that make them superior to other classes in any meaningful way, they only get repercussions.

[mattk50]

i feel like this would be a good gimmick for a small game (something 2d like star sonata scale comes to mind) but i wouldnt want character slots and selective permadeath to be present in a sandbox mmo infinity. it ends up interfering with the other mechanics of the game, you need to make a character specifically for permadeath even if the game lets you change later you want to minimize your potential losses so the only option is to use a dedicated character, this creates a pretty dull meta game around it i think. That would only apply to a much larger game though, it could be cool in a smaller one where everything is built to support it.

[hrobertson]

I agree. Those rules are far too harsh and would remove loads of gameplay possibilities. I’ve never played as a pirate and personally I don’t see what’s fun about ruining another player’s day. However, I’m trying to think of what would result in the most realistic player behaviour and the best gameplay for everyone rather than just making it as carebear friendly as possible.

I’d like to see each player allowed one character at a time per licensed copy of the game.
You can only create a new character once your current one dies or you choose to retire them.

IMO having character ‘slots’ trivialises characters and makes them disposable… with JB’s idea if you want to pirate you can just spin up a throw away pirate character but when that gets difficult or you get killed, you’ve still got your main character to go back to whenever you want.

Having only one character makes your choices really matter.

The accomplishments of previous characters would remain on record for bragging etc.

Regarding gearing up before going pirate

Ships above a certain size have a crew.
If that is a law abiding crew (ie you are a law abiding player), they won’t commit illegal activities such as opening fire on non-criminals unless fired upon first (or they fired at you but missed, or they are at war with you, etc).

Ships below a certain size have just the player pilot or a small crew who are willing to become criminals.
This is explained in-fiction by the player’s character being able to hand select crew based on their personality matching their own. With big crews that’s not feasible.

Once you become a criminal you can get bigger ships but from criminal stations so your crew are already criminals.

---

Yes this means players can still run two accounts or have a friend support their criminal character from their law-abiding character, but I’m fine with that because it’s totally believable and IMO infinitely preferable to locking down a whole bunch of functions.

Additionally, crews above the threshold size could notice that they’re being repeatedly pirated by the same character and report their captain to the authorities. If an otherwise law-abiding player was found to be assisting a criminal, they’d be flagged as a criminal, or if they were in a secure area of space, arrested (character forcibly retired).

---

Edit:
Having character slots is a trait of games like World of Warcraft where you make choices when creating your character that limit your access to a significant amount of the game’s content. ie Selecting a class or a race. So having multiple slots is necessary to enable players to experience all of the content.

However, Infinity the MMO will not follow this model. Any player will be able to fly any ship, etc.

[cybercritic]

I think the rules in the OP don’t go far enough, it’s obvious that if you wanna be a pirate and you die, the game needs to clear the MBR on your HDD. And for the smaller offenses a contraption that hits the pirates head into the keyboard should be mandatory for all players that play as pirates.

[JB47394]

For one, you are completely sealing off a major branch of piracy, which is extortion, also known as: I have a huge battle cruiser you are a freighter with no guards, hand over your cargo and I will let you go peacefully.

Nope. Extortion is alive and well (too well, as it turns out farther down). Pirates do not blow up ships and scoop up the remains. They intercept, subdue, dock and take the specific cargo they’re after. So scan a ship, find out what it has, and proceed intelligently from there.

And no, you cannot shoot out the engines or otherwise stop a cargo ship. You also cannot destroy the ship except at prohibitive expenditure of time and resources. You must convince the pilot that it is in their best interest to allow you to dock and take stuff (though I can imagine hostile docking as well). Given that every time a ship shoots another ship it takes expensive damage, that might be pretty easy to arrange. Well, once the pirate has intercepted the cargo ship.

Miners may want to be able to selectively exhaust their cargo to increase the income per run, when mining mixed ores. On the other hand it won’t be that big a problem, as they won’t be able to mine in the first place, since you’re not allowing to load up without setting a station to unload.

I was unclear about what dumping meant. I meant ‘dumping for pickup’. Nobody can dump whole cargo containers into space for someone else to pick up. Cargo transfers require docking. But there’s nothing preventing a ship from dumping the contents of a cargo container into space. Nobody can pick that up, so it’s lost.

Also, there are no rules stated that prevent players from picking up stuff from the environment. They have the gear and the skills to do it, so they can do it. Miners, archaeologists and other such operations can proceed with no issues.

Traders will be discouraged to trade freely or discover new trading routes, as they will only be able to load cargo when they know where to drop it off, so no on-the-fly trading or ‘roaming trader’ scenario.

Okay, alter the rule. The default setting for cargo is that it can be dropped off at any non-pirate facility. That setting can be made more strict on the fly by the captain of the ship. So a pirate must still subdue, dock and take the cargo (damaging it) because he certainly isn’t in the list of possible destinations. But a non-pirate can also subdue and dock and take the cargo - without damaging it. So a trader who is subdued can quickly pick a specific destination on his cargo, preventing the non-pirate from taking it at all.

That leaves us with non-pirate subduing, and a random (wink, wink) pirate taking - which fines the non-pirate for his complicity.

Oh, what was that? General collaboration between players who happen to be friends who just are in different corporations? Yeah, no, not allowing that. How dare they wanting to help each other by sharing their assets?

I have no idea what you’re talking about here. The word ‘corporation’ doesn’t appear in the base post.

What you should have brought up was any form of in-space transfer. Perhaps a general supply ship for a fleet. It needs to show up and restock the supplies of various ships in the fleet, regardless of their affiliation. Per the new default setting on cargo, that supply ship can fly off towards the fleet without saying who gets what, but ultimately stuff can only be taken from it by a pirate. Anyone can subdue it, but only a pirate can take stuff of material value.

If you want to cater more to pirates - and clearly you do - then don’t allow in-transit cargo to be protected suddenly by the captain of the cargo ship. If they want to play fast and loose and leave their destination open, then anyone can subdue them and take their cargo without anyone being the wiser.

Note that a captain who decides to lock down his cargo is then forcing himself to go to a specific destination, limiting his free-wheeling ways. Alternately, if that lock down process takes time, he may wait too long, and a hostile intercept may succeed in getting to some unprotected cargo, whether the aggressor is pirate or not.

This system is intentionally draconian to limit piracy. If it completely eliminates piracy, then it would be softened, bit by bit, to keep piracy a challenging career, rarely successful.

---

And I just realized that there’s a gaping hole: monetary extortion by non-pirates. I approach your unarmed freighter with my battlecruiser and demand money or I’ll damage you for far more than the money I’m asking for. So everyone will do that because it’s so much easier.

To inhibit that, allow cash transfers only at stations. Now the battlecruiser has to drag the freighter off to some facility to make the secure money transfer using the official network. It would inhibit random transfers mid-flight for everyone, so it’s something to balance against the goal of inhibiting extortion.

It would have no effect on more grand forms of extortion, such as forcing a group of cargo pilots to regularly pay a group of attack pilots money so they can fly unmolested through the attack pilots’ space. Toll fees. Protection money.

Regarding gearing up before going pirate

The point is that players can take as much time as they like to acquire resources before going pirate. So I shut down all avenues of transfer except from one pirate to another. There’s still the troublesome problem of mules. You might create two accounts and use one as a pirate bank mule. If your looting pirate dies, you’d be able to recreate him and get access to your pirate bank mule still. You’d lose the pirate ship and anything on it, but you’d still have any static assets, etc, managed by your mule. Or just a friend’s pirate.

[hrobertson]

you cannot shoot out the engines or otherwise stop a cargo ship.

By cargo ship I assume you mean any ship.
This would be a significant change to what has been discussed in the past.
If a criminal can’t stop a ship, it can just keep flying to the authorities or dock at a station, but that could take years when being disrupted by the criminal’s warp field.

every time a ship shoots another ship it takes expensive damage,

So the ship is incurring damage that is expensive to repair, but does not cripple them? So why repair it? What is getting damaged?
I thought the durable ships idea was all about hulls being very durable but exposed components like engines and weapons can be disabled once shields are down. This disincentivises blowing people up for lols but still permits effective piracy.

[quote=“JB47394, post:6, topic:951”]
Per the new default setting on cargo, that supply ship can fly off towards the fleet without saying who gets what, but ultimately stuff can only be taken from it by a pirate. Anyone can subdue it, but only a pirate can take stuff of material value.
[/quote]

I think you meant only a non-pirate can take stuff? If the new default setting is that cargo “can be dropped off at any non-pirate facility [or ship?]” ?

[quote=“JB47394, post:6, topic:951”]
If you want to cater more to pirates - and clearly you do - then don’t allow in-transit cargo to be protected suddenly by the captain of the cargo ship.
[/quote]

Allowing a captain to set the destination of cargo mid-flight is never going to work. It just means when pirates (or non-pirate pirates) threaten them, the pirates force them to set it to ‘any destination’ or face the same punishment as if they hadn’t allowed them to dock at all.

So that leaves setting destination at a station which as @dekaku said, prohibits wandering traders and various other spontaneous interactions.

We’re trying to make criminal activities believably difficult and consequential to produce realistic behaviour from the player base, not make the game a haven for carebears while shutting down various actions that should be common.

There is no way you can prevent pirates from having alts or friends. I don’t see a problem with that. It’s not unrealistic.
What is unrealistic is a significant bunch of players blowing people up for lolz and conducting criminal activities without consequences.

[dekaku]

Guess I didn’t understand your definition of cargo. Just to make sure: I mean everything you load/ have loaded in your ship and not installed, when I say cargo.

[Extortion]

You’re making it unnecessarily complicated to extort people. Why go through the whole shebang of carefully docking at someones ship and then wait for an arbitrary amount of time, just to then undock? Especially when the freighter could just jetisson the cargo, that the pirate then can scoop up with his ship while the freighter runs away? It works quite well in >every< other space game.
Also why should we not be able to destroy every ship? We are talking about a ship that is fitted especially to destroy other ships, while the freighter/victim has a ship that’s fitted for hauling huge amounts of cargo. Those aren’t really known for their durability.

I was unclear about what dumping meant. I meant ‘dumping for pickup’. Nobody can dump whole cargo containers into space for someone else to pick up. Cargo transfers require docking. But there’s nothing preventing a ship from dumping the contents of a cargo container into space. Nobody can pick that up, so it’s lost.

It just doesn’t make sense to me, to arbitrarily prevent players from picking up anything they come across (assuming that they do have enough free space in their ship to pick it up), including cargo. The game is set in the distant future, if we’re already able to remotely control drones nowadays, it should be a no brainer, that it is easy to pick up anything in space, in said distant future.

Okay, alter the rule. The default setting for cargo is that it can be dropped off at any non-pirate facility. That setting can be made more strict on the fly by the captain of the ship. So a pirate must still subdue, dock and take the cargo (damaging it) because he certainly isn’t in the list of possible destinations. But a non-pirate can also subdue and dock and take the cargo - without damaging it. So a trader who is subdued can quickly pick a specific destination on his cargo, preventing the non-pirate from taking it at all.

Wait a second. Are you by any chance implying that you physically get into another players ship, like in a first person shooter, and then grab the cargo from there? Because that means that we’re both talking on two completely different levels. My level is, that you cannot leave your ship to do anything.

I have no idea what you’re talking about here. The word ‘corporation’ doesn’t appear in the base post.

I did assume that in your version, it is at least possible for people who are in the same Corporation/Clan/Guild, to share assets like money and ressources. As far as I understood your ruleset, sharing money and ressources isn’t possible between ‘regular’ people.

There is always a balance to strike between freedom and security. I just don’t find it acceptable to take away a lot of freedom just because some people play pirates. Most people I met in those games aren’t pirates, so why make it even less attractive by unnecessarily complicating something as fundamentally simple as pirating?

Also as I mentioned before (in the other thread), I am not a fan of pirates, I never was, and never will be. I am actually quite easily enraged by a Pirate / PK’er ingame, and then will go out of my way (and invest quite a lot of time and ressources) to make the game as miserable for the PK’er / Pirate, that I encountered.
However, that is my personal playstyle. I want to screw those people over with my own set of skills (and money), not because the game rules broke the pirates’ legs, arms, spine and neck beforehand. It’s not my job to preemptively punish the pirates for choosing that playstyle.

[JB47394]

[quote=“hrobertson, post:7, topic:951”]
By cargo ship I assume you mean any ship.This would be a significant change to what has been discussed in the past.If a criminal can’t stop a ship, it can just keep flying to the authorities or dock at a station, but that could take years when being disrupted by the criminal’s warp field.[/quote]

I’m going with Durable Ships and the warp prototype movement system. Given that combination, you don’t stop a ship. It keeps on warp, and you’re faced with a running fight. However, if a pirate shows up and intercepts you, you’re not going to lose him. From there, it’s a question of how long it takes for help and the beset ship to merge. That’s determined by a bunch of balance factors.

The idea is that the pirate intercepts the target ship and tells it to stop or the pirate is going to start making holes. All he wants is the machinery in cargo bay 6. If the holes would be more expensive than the machinery, it makes financial sense to let the pirate take what he wants.

If pirates can perform hostile docking, then it’s moot; the pirate just grabs the cargo ship, docks and takes. Smash and grab.

I thought the durable ships idea was all about hulls being very durable but exposed components like engines and weapons can be disabled once shields are down. This disincentivises blowing people up for lols but still permits effective piracy.

I need to get to the old forums to repost that thing.

Durable Ships have no shields. Every shot that lands damages something. Armor, hull, sensors, cargo, hangars, weapons, etc. The drive is pretty much invulnerable, but once everything else is destroyed, you’ll start in on that too. When the drive is destroyed, the ship is consumed in a bright white light and then winks out, leaving nothing but some very unhappy crew members who then head home.

“Cripple” meant “severely limit or remove locomotive capacity”.

I think you meant only a non-pirate can take stuff? If the new default setting is that cargo “can be dropped off at any non-pirate facility [or ship?]” ?

Only a pirate can take stuff. The cargo guy can drop cargo off wherever his cargo settings allow. Those cargo settings never allow drop off at a pirate facility.

[quote=“hrobertson, post:7, topic:951”]
Allowing a captain to set the destination of cargo mid-flight is never going to work. It just means when pirates (or non-pirate pirates) threaten them, the pirates force them to set it to ‘any destination’ or face the same punishment as if they hadn’t allowed them to dock at all.[/quote]

Pilots cannot reset cargo from a specific destination to ‘any destination’. It only goes one way.

Also, if non-pirates cannot perform hostile docking, then there’s no issue. Unless the cargo pilot invites the non-pirate to dock for cargo transfer, then there’s nothing the non-pirate can do.

We’re trying to make criminal activities believably difficult and consequential to produce realistic behaviour from the player base, not make the game a haven for carebears while shutting down various actions that should be common.

No, I’m trying to describe an experience for pirates that separates them from non-pirates. Certainly it’s not supposed to shut down common actions. The use of permadeath makes for an obvious difference. Making it difficult to work up a pirate is another part of the experience. Once I got started on the system, I realized that separating pirates from non-pirates was essential if being a pirate was going to be substantially different from other characters.

Pirating could just as easily be separated out, but lack permadeath, and have piles of opportunities for fast gear accrual and lethal weaponry. But they would remain separate from other player characters. They’d become player-run NPCs after a fashion. You know they’re the bad guys, and they have the ability to take your stuff. If you have any, they’ll come after you.

For all I know, people would enjoy making pirates a permadeath encounter for both sides, which is another possibility. If a pirate appears, he’s not only going to take your cargo, but he’s going to kill you permadead and take your ship. Reavers from Firefly. You really get nervous when they’re around.

Note that all of these systems are just ideas that serve as food for thought. As much as I love Durable Ships and the warp prototype’s movement system, I have zero expectations of either system appearing in any of I-Novae Studio’s games. If they were the least bit interested in either, I’d have expected at least an email asking for some clarifications or expansions over the last few years.

[Kreydis]

Chill folks chill. Dissecting other people’s posts leads to, way to much text some times.

[JB47394]

Chill folks chill. Dissecting other people’s posts leads to to much text some times.

So long as the posts are discussing the gameplay system, I welcome it. If it devolves into forum PvP I have no interest.

Guess I didn’t understand your definition of cargo. Just to make sure: I mean everything you load/ have loaded in your ship and not installed, when I say cargo.

Cargo is stuff that a pirate can take. If they can board and take your sensors, then so be it. The system is agnostic to that. Perhaps I should have just called it plunder.

You’re making it unnecessarily complicated to extort people. Why go through the whole shebang of carefully docking at someones ship and then wait for an arbitrary amount of time, just to then undock?

That’s not an extortion scenario in this system. I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

A pirate docks, takes stuff and flies off. That’s piracy.

Especially when the freighter could just jetisson the cargo, that the pirate then can scoop up with his ship while the freighter runs away? It works quite well in >every< other space game.

It also allows everyone in the game to be a pirate. You never know who is going to try to take your stuff. This is a system that attempts to let players know when that situation is presenting itself. It’s a gameplay design exercise.

Also why should we not be able to destroy every ship? We are talking about a ship that is fitted especially to destroy other ships, while the freighter/victim has a ship that’s fitted for hauling huge amounts of cargo. Those aren’t really known for their durability.

That is explained by a very long post in the old forums entitled Durable Ships. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to the forums, nor do I have a copy of the post.

And there is no short form.

[quote=“dekaku, post:8, topic:951”]
It just doesn’t make sense to me, to arbitrarily prevent players from picking up anything they come across (assuming that they do have enough free space in their ship to pick it up), including cargo.[/quote]

Ejected cargo is not warp stabilized, so it vanishes as soon as it is ejected.

[quote=“dekaku, post:8, topic:951”]
Wait a second. Are you by any chance implying that you physically get into another players ship, like in a first person shooter, and then grab the cargo from there? Because that means that we’re both talking on two completely different levels. My level is, that you cannot leave your ship to do anything.[/quote]

You’re far too distracted by fiction.

Dock = connect ships
Take = drag icons

I just don’t find it acceptable to take away a lot of freedom just because some people play pirates.

Which freedoms? And in my experience, games that allow piracy result in everyone being either a pirate or an anti-pirate. As I have no interest in Lord of the Flies gameplay, I keep coming up with new design ideas.

[hrobertson]

[quote=“JB47394, post:9, topic:951”]
All he wants is the machinery in cargo bay 6.[/quote]

Once he’s docked, what’s to stop them taking everything?

If players can jetison what they choose then that gives the pirate a decision to make - continue chasing the target or stop to pick up the cargo.

[quote=“JB47394, post:9, topic:951”]
No, I’m trying to describe an experience for pirates that separates them from non-pirates. Certainly it’s not supposed to shut down common actions. The use of permadeath makes for an obvious difference. Making it difficult to work up a pirate is another part of the experience. Once I got started on the system, I realized that separating pirates from non-pirates was essential if being a pirate was going to be substantially different from other characters.[/quote]

Maybe that’s the difference in our approaches. I think playing as a criminal should be a lot more difficult, but basically the same gameplay as everyone else.
You seem to think criminals should have different gameplay mechanics?

[Nos_Fi]

He thinks that there should be one faction witch has permadeath to add more thrill to those that have done everything else. I think that pirateing should be part of the normal gameplay. Better use that permadeath gameplay to some kind of special ops faction

[hrobertson]

To clarify, I’m fine with permadeath for pirates. Just not with JB’s proposed cargo handling mechanics.

[dekaku]

You’re far too distracted by fiction.

Dock = connect shipsTake = drag icons

Ah good, seems I just misunderstood your post regarding this. For a second I thought you were expecting Infinity to be something like Star citizen with its fps module .

Which freedoms? And in my experience, games that allow piracy result in everyone being either a pirate or an anti-pirate. As I have no interest in Lord of the Flies gameplay, I keep coming up with new design ideas.

Guess that our experiences differ in that regard.

Ejected cargo is not warp stabilized, so it vanishes as soon as it is ejected.

I do assume that all the jetisoning occures while not in warp (obviously) so you should be able to see it and scoop it up by using automated drones or whatever.
However, if I got something completely wrong, feel free to explain what ‘warp stabilized’ means. It’s not like stuff just randomly dematerialize in space.

It also allows everyone in the game to be a pirate. You never know who is going to try to take your stuff. This is a system that attempts to let players know when that situation is presenting itself. It’s a gameplay design exercise.

I don’t know how ‘jetison all your cargo or get destroyed’ could possibly not imply that you’re getting pirated right this moment.

That’s not an extortion scenario in this system. I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

A pirate docks, takes stuff and flies off. That’s piracy.

Are you differentiating between extorting and piracy? Because in my eyes extorting is a subset of piracy. And each extortion in your ruleset would (if succesful) lead to docking and taking cargo/plunder.

[hrobertson]

I do assume that all the jetisoning occures while not in warp (obviously) so you should be able to see it and scoop it up by using automated drones or whatever.

JB is talking in the context of a system where ships are always ‘at warp’. This is what make the interceptions and relative movement possible at high speed.
I disagree that the system makes it necessary for ships to always be in a state of warp.

For details check out the videos here Video demo of the warp prototype

I don’t know how ‘jetison all your cargo or get destroyed’ could possibly not imply that you’re getting pirated right this moment.

You’re missing the point. It’s about preventing someone who has been a law-abiding citizen and built up wealth and gear without having to worry about the police, from becoming a pirate with that gear.

JB is suggesting a good way to do that would be all these rules around cargo movement.
I think those rules are overly restrictive and have undesirable effects on the gameplay of law-abiding citizens and I’m suggesting a preferable way to do that would be to prevent law abiding citizens in big crewed ships from shooting other law-abiding systems.

Then if a law abiding citizen in anything other than the small ships attempts to extort you, you know that they can’t open fire because their crew won’t let them.

[JB47394]

Once he’s docked, what’s to stop them taking everything?

Nothing, though he has to be big enough to take everything, and word will get around that that pirate takes everything.

If players can jetison what they choose then that gives the pirate a decision to make - continue chasing the target or stop to pick up the cargo.

Okay. That mechanic can be retained. The important features are that cargo is damaged when obtained by pirates, and only pirates can obtain cargo. So if a hauler kicks out cargo, that damages the cargo and only a pirate can pick it up. That applies to all cargo, whether marked for a specific destination or not. In other words, ejecting cargo is synonymous with a pirate taking it.

You seem to think criminals should have different gameplay mechanics?

You guys still misunderstand. Pirates shouldn’t be anything, one way or the other. This is one pirate system, and it makes pirates into a particular experience. Take it or leave it. There are myriad other pirate systems possible with myriad other permutations of features and traits.

And each extortion in your ruleset would (if succesful) lead to docking and taking cargo/plunder.

That was the original plan. Pirates always take stuff, while non-pirates can give stuff to each other. As you and @hrobertson have pointed out, ejecting cargo works as a means of indicating that a ship is being pirated. It can follow the same rules as a pirate taking cargo.

I wonder how many pirates would fall for ejected cargo. Unless I could identify the cargo from pursuit distance, I’m going to ignore what he drops and instead close on him and check to see what he has. He’s most likely to drop his high-mass, low-value cargo so he can go faster (maybe), while as a pirate I’m interested in the stuff he wants to keep. So even if I scan it from pursuit distance, I’ll know that he’s just dumping iron ore.

I disagree that the system makes it necessary for ships to always be in a state of warp.

What happens when a ship comes out of warp? Well, either ships cannot interact with it anymore or it becomes a standard interactable object, like an asteroid of equivalent mass.

If the former, then I can escape from any pursuit by dropping out of warp.

If the latter, then I can tackle whole fleets with a fighter - which was the reason that we came up with a modification to the original warp system in the first place.

JB is suggesting a good way to do that would be all these rules around cargo movement.

I don’t see many rules

1. Only pirates can take cargo or pick up ejected cargo, both of which result in significant damage to the cargo.

2. Credits can only be transferred at authorized core-connected facilities. Everyone else barters.

3. Cargo can be marked for specific destinations and, once marked, cannot be unmarked until it reaches that destination.

4. Damaging a ship that is shortly thereafter pirated produces a fine for the attacker.

Piracy is really only about 1 and 2. Ensuring that only pirates take stuff involves 3 and 4. Non-pirates can still extort money, but only for ongoing extortion. The victim has to return to a safe spot to make a transfer to the non-pirate extortionist.

I’m suggesting a preferable way to do that would be to prevent law abiding citizens in big crewed ships from shooting other law-abiding systems.

I wanted to continue to allow hostilities. Wars.

This piracy system was created to eliminate random piracy. In typical PvP games with full loot, every person you see is a source of wealth. It’s likely that they are a concentrated form of weath, resulting from that player’s efforts. But just by showing up and being a better combat player, you can take all manner of accomplishments from them. Their mining gear, their exploration gear, etc. Concentration of wealth.

So this system was created to handicap pirates. Instead of them going off and building up an awesome combat rig and mopping the floor with everyone who isn’t focused on combat, they have to struggle to survive. That struggle is offset by the game-sanctioned right to take stuff from other players. It’s supposed to be a balance that ensures that all players enjoy the presence of pirates, not just the pirates.

[dekaku]

JB is talking in the context of a system where ships are always ‘at warp’. This is what make the interceptions and relative movement possible at high speed.I disagree that the system makes it necessary for ships to always be in a state of warp.

For details check out the videos here Video demo of the warp prototype

I watched all videos, and iirc only the last one, the one with a small corridor, was actually in-warp, but then again, it’s his 2d prototype so I might’ve, yet again, misinterpreted his explanation.

I wonder how many pirates would fall for ejected cargo. Unless I could identify the cargo from pursuit distance, I’m going to ignore what he drops and instead close on him and check to see what he has. He’s most likely to drop his high-mass, low-value cargo so he can go faster (maybe), while as a pirate I’m interested in the stuff he wants to keep. So even if I scan it from pursuit distance, I’ll know that he’s just dumping iron ore.

Shouldn’t there be some type of scanner? Something that tells you what the other person has loaded. I don’t know how other games employ that system, but I remember the X-Series using it, if only to let the police check if you have anything illegal aboard. And I think in eve you could actually get a container that would withstand up to a certain scan strength. So I am assuming that it will be possible to check for cargo from pursuit distance. My reasoning again being that it is in the distant future.

This piracy system was created to eliminate random piracy.

Why not make it then so that shooting anyone, you’re not officially at war with, makes you a pirate, with all those denominations like having a bounty set on you, restricted access to differen stations etc? This way you as the victim can argue, that that stranger who’s not a pirate yet, will gain too many repercussions

I find the idea of everyone being immortal but a small arbitrary group kind of silly. Either make everyone hardcore chraacters or no one. There’s too much of a disparity if you say to one side “oh sure, respawn as much as you like” while you say to the other ones “you’re getting one life, make it count”. I find this option not very appealing, as it would give me, the one who takes pleasure in hunting pirates, too much of an advantage, as I could just continuously throw myself against some pirate, until he dies. And this is something that definitely happened already on multiple occasions.

[JB47394]

I watched all videos, and iirc only the last one, the one with a small corridor, was actually in-warp, but then again, it’s his 2d prototype so I might’ve, yet again, misinterpreted his explanation.

That’s jumping, which provides interstellar travel. Warp is all the motion when running around between planets, intercepting ships and such. The first videos.

Shouldn’t there be some type of scanner?

Yep. The scan fidelity at various distances would be something that needed to be tuned across the board. I favor range impacting the amount of information you can collect.

Why not make it then so that shooting anyone, you’re not officially at war with, makes you a pirate

On the old forums we abandoned the idea of war declarations. Groups can shoot at each other whenever they like. Perhaps just to shoo away a pesky spy, or a small skirmish that develops in no-man’s land - that escalates briefly into both sides trotting out their battlewagons - only to quickly return them because somebody suckered them into fighting each other.

Undeclared interactions are much more organic.

[quote=“dekaku, post:18, topic:951”]
I find this option not very appealing, as it would give me, the one who takes pleasure in hunting pirates, too much of an advantage, as I could just continuously throw myself against some pirate, until he dies. And this is something that definitely happened already on multiple occasions.[/quote]

Let’s consider what bounty hunting would be like. There won’t be as many pirates, so they’ll be difficult to find in the first place. They’ll likely have fast ships, forcing you to go in lightly-armed as well. They won’t be in convenient places where you have lots of support because that would be suicide for them. They may well always hunt in packs or set ambushes so that they have the upper hand when they encounter a bounty hunter or bounty hunter pack. They will probably be much better than the average player because they face so many headwinds.

You might well find that bounty hunting is much more challenging and much more enjoyable as a result.

Note also that if you throw yourself at a pirate, he/they may just shoot up your ship. Your immortal character may be fine, but it may take an hour or two to get your ship back in fighting trim. They may have the same problem, though pirates may have the edge in that their systems are so beat up normally that they can make field repairs quickly and be back to their version of normal in short order. They’re undoubtedly better at living off the land.

Oh, and we kinda discarded salvaging of ships as well, because that also inspires random attacks on ships. With this structured piracy, destroyed ships could leave wreckage from which pirates could take stuff that might not be takeable from a functioning ship. So pirates have an incentive to actually destroy ships - which is a difficult thing to do. Under that scheme, you can lose your ship to a pirate, while any other player would prefer to damage it until you are obliged to retreat.

[hrobertson]

Take it or leave it.

Can we not discuss it, question it, express our opinions about it? That is what we are doing.