Stations & carriers: 1-way hangars vs. 2-way hangars

With a two way, you have a least another way of exiting if the outer doors are damaged and can’t open.

The one way ones seem to be only useful if you want to pressurise the compartment, which I assume would be seldom… you’d probably use bridges to connect to docking ports.

I’d try and remove walls for the sake of walls and park ships like an airport. Come in through a central tunnel and veer off into a parking area to the top and bottom and then just go out through the top and bottom corridors.

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From the carrier thread…

None of these designs consider that you can land a craft on top or bottom of the carrier bays, a single dead-end lane with the top being used for entry and bottom for exit would be just fine.

What cybercritic said. The first thing came to mind looking at OP is how 2d these concepts are. Sure both options make sense on the ground, but not in space. You can have a simple corridor/“runway”, with landing pads on all of it’s sides. Maximum space, maximum flow. The landing ships are out of the way because they are always offset in at least 1 dimension (to either side or to above/below), and no ship has to turn around within the carrier.

Might be a bit hard to see but landing places (blue) are on all four sides of a square corridor (white) in this example. If you want to make it less boring you can make a corridor that is perhaps wider in one direction and have multiple “lanes”, or is hexagonal for less wasted space in the corners, etc.

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That’s assuming we never want to impart a significant gravitational field on the carrier, though. Not much use putting things on walls and ceilings if you want to park your carrier over a base below the geostationary orbit altitude, much less on the surface.

And while I realize there will not be such detailed destruction as to show specific rooms getting trashed, there are plenty of reasons to separate the craft, which I listed above. Putting all your eggs in one basket and such. This community has always been big on realistic, practical design, and there are realistic, practical reasons for both

You would require a way of locking things to the ship anyway. The gravitational forces of bodies differ little from the forces emerging while accelerating the ship in certain directions. Given how ridiculously powerful the engines are on the current ships, I would expect the gravitational field of planets to be of a mild annoyance at best.

As far as separating parts of the ship, sure I said nothing about that. You probably want to have multiple launch decks anyway, I was just trying to point out how “flat” all the designs seem to be compared to what is possible in space.

Fair enough, regarding the acceleration of planets vs ship. That being said, I still feel the only way a multi-surface hangar will work efficiently is in a zero gravity situation: while I understand any amount of gravity generation is mostly hand-wavium, generating it in a single direction “feels” more realistic and likely to me. That being said, a rotary style ship hangar to generate false gravity could certainly be an option, and gives a very real reason to avoid non-zero G situations as much as possible during operations.

Capital ships are not capable of entering the atmosphere in the Infinity universe, they are space-only ships…

That may be true, but if I hold my position in a geostationary orbit in LEO, I am subjected to roughly 90% gravity at sea level (https://what-if.xkcd.com/58/). That means needing to constantly output ~90% of my weight to maintain altitude outside the atmosphere. Why not maintain a proper GEO? My small craft only have to travel 160km, instead of nearly 36,000km.

Additionally, there is the possibility of moons and planets without an atmosphere. Realistically speaking, what is stopping a capital craft from approaching those?

Reality breaks at some point, current craft pull such high Gs that magical inertial dampeners are needed just to keep the pilot alive and there are no orbital mechanics in IBS. Also, I think the artificial gravity in Infinity universe is localized, as in having magical plates that create a gravitational attraction, in that case you could put those plates on the floor and on the ceiling and have a perfectly functional two ‘floor’ room.

That may be, but even if we work under the assumption that any surface of any room can be used as the “floor,” you still wouldn’t wasn’t to use more than the two opposing sides, else you begin to waste volume. In the L design shown earlier, there is a lot of dead space "above"each wall that goes unused, and you cannot park craft against the wall where they join because taking off would crash into the craft parked on the other wall. For a great deal of expense and energy costs in gravity generation on two sides of a room (which I continue to assert is far harder to find reasonable than a single direction of false gravity in a room), and potential confusion of having two different launch orientations, you gain the maneuvering space granted to each level above the parking height.

As a sailor who is familiar with the military’s desire for simplicity and redundancy in everything, the default choice for a militarized design is obvious: single orientation, preferably with a default layout across all vessels.

How about the curvature of space? If the warp drive system is sufficiently sensitive to the curvature of space then moving deep into the gravity well of a massive body would be bad - regardless of whether you use the warp drive to move in and out of the gravity well. It’s like taking a delicate crystal object and bending it. It doesn’t bend, it breaks. The warp drive is metaphorically crystalline, and taking it into the gravity well will shatter it.

Simplicity and redundancy puts the hangars on the exterior of the ship, with the service and support gear arrayed adjacent to it. Having armed ships flying around in the interior of a carrier is nuts, and it also delays their recovery and deployment times. It also presents single/limited points of failure that could lead to disaster, whether through accident or attack. These are all reasons why I suggested a raised spine on a long ship.

The interior hallway makes sense if the carrier is a combat ship, heavily armored and needing to protect its hangars. However, if a carrier is a non-combatant - as with modern carriers - then it’s all about operational efficiency.

I was under the impression capitals had conventional drives as well, but I’ve not been keeping up with discussions very well. Either way, if we are assuming artificial gravity generation, I find it much easier to believe each room can be given a specific gravity in any vector than believing every room can generate a magical gravity that only affects half the room.

I can think of several reasons to keep hangars internal, mostly for protection of the small craft from impacts (space debris or attack), as well as convenience to the crew (walking around outside is dangerous). There is also some concern over atmosphere, I am assuming hangars will be star wars style where they are pressurized against the vacuum, but find it hard to imagine wanting to pressurized the entire exterior of the hull. Conventional bombs suddenly become quite valuable in such a design.

While there is always risk associated to internally stored weapons, it is not unimaginable that passing through a hangar would send a signal to deactivate weapon systems. In terms of risk, an external hangar poses a high degree of risk to individuals on a much higher frequency, with little that can be done to mitigate the risks. Internal hangars have a much higher risk at a much lower frequency, but with a great number of ways to mitigate those risks.

you need less than 1g to stay in a static position above earth.
when you pull more than 1g you ascend :stuck_out_tongue:
no magic high g inertia dampeners.

theres the question: is the device sensible to external gravity fields or just the effect it creates?
because small ships have warp drives and can very much get far below warp drive activation altitude without the drive breaking.
(especially as LEO is already about 0.9g and im pretty sure we’ll be able to pull capships into low orbits)

aka is it an engine restriction or a gameplay restriction?

I was talking about Gs encountered from acceleration in a normal combat scenario.

It doesn’t matter. Interfering with the field could constitute destruction of the drive. That’s just fiction at that point.

The rationalization is that tidal forces would destroy the drive, which is a difference in gravitational attraction between the near side of the capital and the far side. If a warp drive cannot tolerate that difference, then it cannot function in that environment.

I haven’t done the math to figure out if it could be backed up by real numbers or if it would just be a handwave to say that capitals can’t approach massive bodies. For example, the math might say that a fighter cannot approach a white dwarf because of the tidal forces involved, while a capital could still approach moons of a certain size. Those may not be scenarios that the engine wants to support.

I think the problem is more along the lines of finding a justification that can be consistent while not forcing capitals to spend the entire game a billion kilometers from the nearest body of importance. IIRC, cruisers are intended to be platforms to bombard other capitals and structures: I don’t know if the intent is to include planetary fixtures, but if so the cruisers will have to have some way of getting within range. If you base it on gravitational effects, Jupiter’s gravitational pull is 1g at ~110,000 km. If we assume capitals are not intended to get lower than an earth-equivalent LEO, that means capital ships could never approach a Jupiter-mass body closer than that distance. Continuing to use Jupiter as a reference, that would put all four of its major moons within capital territory.

From a purely “g” related view, this would seem to be viable for Earth-mass bodies and greater. Of course, this presents a few issues: given that gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable, either the ships cannot accelerate faster than 0.9g (and we cannot use artificial gravity to dampen the effects in the room) or we can use artificial gravity to dampen the effects of acceleration (and we can then use that technology to allow us to approach the planet).

You mention tidal forces as a potential limiter, but then a similar issue arises based on rotation. If an object rotates fast enough, the difference in “centripetal forces” across the diameter of the warp drive is no different from the tidal forces of a dense object. This also creates an issue regarding the approach of objects with no significant tidal forces.

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There is still ongoing debate as to whether or not capital ships will be allowed to enter atmosphere and if so to what extent based on a planets gravity etc so please don’t consider that set in stone as of this moment in time.

You know it would actually be nice if it was ‘set in stone’, either way. I guess it will be decided with testing and a popularity poll that will follow…

Get someone to spend a week on a design document @inovaekeith, please.

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It could be interesting if a warp drive really was sensitive to planets somehow, and stopped functioning after entering planetary bombardment range until repaired. It would require that capital ships commit to a planetary attack, either until successful or until they can get the time in space to repair.

Linky, linky … just putting this here for interested people:

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