I just wanted to say, Keith, that it’s nice to hear you make mention of the mental health issues some of you guys have been suffering through with this. @XeonXT_ touched on this a bit in his Limit Theory updates before Christmas, too, and it’s refreshing to see you guys touch on the kind of strain this kind of work puts on your psyches. That’s a discussion that needs to be had more openly in general.
There’s a couple of ways to interpret that line, and it’s very difficult to judge the intent and tone of what’s being said there, but it did feel kind of cranky to me, too. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I’m assuming that wasn’t how Keith wanted it to come across, but it’s how I read it.
[quote=“kaiyoti, post:10, topic:660”]
I’m in the software industry and I know that “It’s done when it’s done” means it unlikely will be done within a reasonable time period[/quote]
I’m also being in the software industry, and I can tell you that this can happen when you’re doing R&D (yeah, I insist on the R). Sure, maybe not on a span of 10 years, but let’s remember those guys have spent most of their personnal time on this poject.
Don’t get me wrong, I still think I-Novae has a lot of improvement in the communication array (how’s that website update by the way ? ).
Nonetheless, I completely agree with the last analysis in the blog: people can get so crazy about stupid things … an App that sends ‘Yo’ to all contacts bought by Facebook a few millions ? Just wtf ? (Of course they bought the user data, nobody’s naive ^^). And those same people will get so caustic about bought games where people actually developped a real project. Well, can’t blame some of the comments regarding a few of the latest so-called “AAA” games, but that’s another matter ^^
So keep strong and get us a Kickstarter before 2017
Also, @kaiyoti, no need to be an English major to understand the sentence was a rhetorical answer to the “IGlenn” guy: the cry of annoyance is not aimed directly at the reader, unless the reader thinks the same way as “IGlenn”.
The dev team is made of humans, and bizarrely, humans have feelings that can be hurt.
Oh, and by the way, you should really think about what you do if you don’t get the minimal fund: you’ll save a lot of anxiety and you’ll come up with a much better plan than those made on last-minute.
The “Haters,” don’t seem to be haters really (the vast majority at least). The comments cause reflection, and can fuel our own doubts at times (can be incredibly discouraging to read) but the more I read them, the more I realize that our “Haters” are just frustrated fans, tired of waiting for the dream to be realized.
IGlenn himself is following a number of our feeds and has liked a few of our screenshot shares on twitter. I took his post as an expression of frustration, not one of hate, but it still stings a little
I interpreted it as Keiths own frustration of not being able to just buy his dream game from someone else. I thought it was aimed towards any other game developer and thus ultimately also to himself.
I think the quote is, if interpreted in my way, one of the best part of the blog, because it shows that Keith himself feels the same frustration that all the fans, he listens to in social media, do. Showing that he does, in fact, understand.
I’m honestly glad you decided to let off a little bit of your own frustration Keith. I’ve also read the comments that come from angry supporters over the intervening years and I can truly empathize. I’m sure that I’ve come off sounding a bit whiny myself at times and haven’t really been as supportive as I can.
That being said, I’d like to take a second to compliment you and the team on your recent efforts to communicate with the community. I know I criticized you for it earlier, but that is probably the one criticism that I would stand by.
The individuals vocalizing their frustration and disappointment are not necessarily the majority of people out there, but rather, they are simply the ones dominating the conversation (leading you to see nothing but negativity). I’m sure you’ll find plenty of us out here who can understand your problems, if only at a human level.
So continue to engage with us. You don’t need content to do that. We’re all human. We’ve all had our good days and our bad ones. We also all have our dreams…and no one should be stepping on anyone else’s dreams, least of all yours.
The 2010 tech demo worked really well on a mid-ranged graphics card of the time ( a GForce 7900 IIRC) and even ran (albeit very slowly) on an integrated graphics card I tried it on. Flavien didn’t rely on pure GPU performance as much as many people seem to think he did.
The problem with the project to me has always been the focus on refining the engine instead of working on game prototypes. The greatest time to be a member of this community was at the launch of the combat prototype. Being in IRC on the day when IA first allowed public access on to the ICP server was one of the most exciting events I’ve participated in.
I’m disappointed that INovae have revealed that their next downloadable technology demo will be on rails and not an interactive environment. The focus is still on the technology with little regard given to how to use that engine to actually make a game. It is almost as if the attitude is that if the technology is perfected then the game will follow automatically.
We don’t know if INovae have a clear plan for how Infinity: Battlescape is intended to work from a gameplay point of view. Think about the distances involved and consider the unique game design challenges. What are the objectives and how will matches be arranged? Will there be a single player mode? Are there tests being conducted to ensure that the intended gameplay is actually fun? Games that have an entire planet as thier arena are extremely rare and require unique game dynamics.
INovae need to bear in mind that the forthcoming Kickstarter campaign will be a request for funds to finance a product. People will need a very clear idea of what that product will be.
What still keeps me optimistic after all this time is that the ICP was a really well balanced and enjoyable experience. Flavien proved his game design credentials in that product, it’s just a shame we’ve not seen any more of those particular talents since.
Absolutely agree when you say people will need a clear idea of what the product will be. Hopefully we’ll see all about those specific, undiscussed gameplay mechanics they’ve been keeping in-house once the funding period starts.
It has been stated by Keith that there will be a single player mode. More than likely only for the sake of the player wanting to aimlessly fly around without any disturbances.
Lately I’ve been seeing more discussion about how there hasn’t been much of any work done on the side of gameplay. This makes me wonder what we’re even going to see once crowd funding gets underway. I had sworn a while back a developer said they would have something for players right away. Then it was made clear that, no, we wouldn’t get a full product for an undetermined duration because there wouldn’t be one to play yet.
I’ve been following i-Novae in silence from some years, I subscribed not too long ago (1 year?) so I could participate in some discussions. I would never have had the patience to follow a project for so long if I didn’t recognize it had a lot of potential.
You’ve grown, since you’ve closed yourselves on working on the engine, you did some enormous steps and are creating one of the most amazing engines I’ve ever seen (especially on the lighting side).
But whatever you have in your hands, I suppose the hardest part will be getting attention again on you when the KS starts so please don’t rush it. When everything is ready, set a date, spread the word. Heck, make even a teaser of the KickStarter but you must get the attention you need and deserve.
Don’t let me down guys, I want to see you shine. And not only because the game(s) you plan to produce, but because you struggled and arrived until now and not without results.
That said, I wish best for you all and I’m always around your twitters and forums ready to drool on some of your pics!
I would say that @Kichae, @Hutchings, @Lomsor, and @Tjafaas are all correct in their assessment of what those 2 sentences were saying - there’s a tremendous amount going on in-between the lines and all those interpretations are correct in their own way. I don’t really think you can take those 2 sentences in isolation and understand where they’re coming from or what they’re trying to say with any sort of accuracy - that’s why I bothered to write the whole rest of the blog. The intent of the article was to break with tradition a bit and put a human face on our development. @kaiyoti you think it was unprofessional and perhaps it was. That being said we aren’t a billion dollar corporation that needs to maintain a well-manicured image. We’re a scrappy startup of about a dozen people with over-sized ambition who are trying to raise half a million dollars. To do that we need to connect with people. We have to construct a compelling narrative to convince them to donate. Being a sterile, professional corporation isn’t going to help us in that regard. That’s why I decided to bother with responding to iGeennn. That’s why I decided to try something a little different, for us, and show the human cost in building this technology and bringing it to market.
Yeah, iGeennn himself probably isn’t going to pledge our KS anymore, hell maybe he never was. If we lose 1, or even 100, to gain 1000 then it’s worth it.
There was still a lot that was busted in our planetary tech back in 2010 that we did a great job of hiding. A big part of what’s taken so long since then is completing our R&D and fixing those problems.
It has been our goal from the beginning to both release a game and make the tech available for licensing. Perhaps we should’ve just focused on the game but either way there was still a lot that needed to be done with the tech as I mentioned above. R&D takes a long time and there’s a reason our tech is the best at doing what it does.
What our next downloadable technology demo is going to be is something that continues to evolve and is entirely based on what we think we can get done within a reasonable amount of time.
We’re most certainly aware of this and the answers you seek will be made available prior to the launch of the KS.
That’s correct, there’ll be a singleplayer aimless wandering mode for those who want it.
You’re going to see a lot you haven’t seen yet once the crowd funding gets underway . Something will be made available immediately. The full scope of what that is, who will have access to it, and when is still being debated as we constantly evaluate our schedule.
If you want to know how to put a human face on INS, look to Hutchings. His posts are uniformly positive, friendly, light-hearted - and he makes posts about results. Sure, he’s the visible tip of the iceberg, dependent upon the entirety of the INS team for those results - but he’s a likable guy. He’s someone that I would back.
I really don’t like to say things like this, but the more I find out about you, the less likely I am to back INS. Perhaps the vast population of gamers - who are generally about half my age - will be drawn to your approach. I’m decidedly not.
That’s like telling someone the more you get to know them the less likely you’d ever date. Except in this situation you are here because you want to be and not because you’re being asked. Publicly airing negative outlook is your choice and everyone has the right to their opinion but some things are better off not said.
I don’t see how JB shouldn’t have said it when he feels like it. Even if I disagree I think it is ok for him to air his increasing dislike for the picture he sees.
@JB47394 what interest me more is what aspect makes you dislike Keiths aproach to the problem that much that it lowers your incentive to support the whole project. Especially as Flavien never did go where Keith went with that post and that you yourself pointed out you like Hutchings approach more.
I think we just walk into misunderstandings here. We may have reached the limit of what can be transported over written text and the missing visual and acoustic clues now create misunderstandings.
Everybody focuses on the short sentence “It’s done when it’s done” that is something nor fans nor haters want to hear, I agree. But I’ve personally focus on the contextualization of his reaction. It’s easy to understand why he needed to say that.
@INovaeKeith
By the way, I think you’re making the exactly same error that every game developer does. This error seems to be, when contextualized, inevitable, but I hope you’ll prove the opposite. You’re building your communication in a closing way (dans un esprit de fermeture), because of sum of ignorance of certain followers you accumulated through years. You’ll just make, as you can see, more ignorance and so more bad reactions.
At the diametrically opposite of your short sentence, you pointed the best way to communicate with us when you tried “to put more of a human face on our development”. If you open your communication to a closer scale to the development adventures, you’ll have less haters. Haters need somebody to open their eyes, that’s all.
My english is not as good as I need to explain what I’m trying to explain, but the idea is here : the bad reactions you can read is the reflection of how you are sparing with advancement information. There’s a balance to find, and I think you didn’t find it.
If somebody ask you when will it be done, answer that there’s so many stuff to do so you can’t know exactly but you hope everything will be done for the (x+0.6x of the time x (year, month) you really think it could be achieved), and precise this timeline will be difficult to respect .
You know why you cannot know when, people want to know it too
[quote=“Ovrki1, post:32, topic:660”]
Publicly airing negative outlook is your choice and everyone has the right to their opinion but some things are better off not said.[/quote]
I wasn’t “airing negative outlook”. I was providing feedback to Keith on his chosen path. Nobody else was saying something that I thought was obvious, and the void needed filling. I very much dislike saying such things, but it needed saying. In short, “That’s not a public face that I want to back. Think again about what you’re doing.”
My goal is to help the team, to provide critical feedback on what they’re doing. When I’m working on a project, finding such feedback is pure gold. The rah rah is great as motivation to keep going, but the critical commentary is essential to tell me where to go with the work. It’s unusual to get honest critiques from people who have a personal connection with you, so building a personal connection with your entire backer base is denying you that critical feedback.
Note that the iGeennn guy gave critical feedback to Keith and Keith was inspired to do something with it. If iGeennn hadn’t said anything, Keith might never have gone that route. That very route might make INS a phenomenal success. I don’t believe that it will, per the above, but it’s a possibility that arose from receiving critical feedback.
I think there is a border between a personal attack and critical feedback that is very thin, for instance if the you in your response refers directly to Keith, then you really shouldn’t call that critical feedback, it’s more of an insult. Also I’m under the opinion that in order for feedback to be critical or constructive, it needs to be structured with a bit more information and not sound like a personally directed rant as in the case of iGeennn tweet.
Fair comments Keith. I hope that suggests that we’ll hear more future updates about Infinity: Battlescape and less about further refinements to the engine. R&D is expensive and especially so if you can’t monetise it in a commercially viable product.
His comment wasn’t disrespectful, it may have been scornful though.
He pretty much said: “I don’t like how you are (probably meaning: “How you act”), I think you should act differently.”
That isn’t in my opinion an insult, but a critique.
But as I said … we are getting into misunderstandings or at least different understandings here. I don’t think anyone on here needs defense against insults, because there aren’t any thrown around. If the person the “statement” is thrown at feels like any of his personal borders is crossed, that person should then defends his personal borders.
Also I don’t think we closed in to a general hostile environment, where outside parties need to step in to defuse the situation.
I’m sorry @Lomsor, but with my background, that sounds more like “The more I find about you as a person, from the way you are acting, the less I’m interested in the company that you represent.”. Not to mention that INS is not only Keith, so pushing a KS backing withdraw, hints that the trespassing of Keith is so severe that the whole company needs to feel it.
I do understand that we shouldn’t be arguing about semantics and intentions, as those are really hard to convey through written text, but if we are gonna do that, we might as well use the same methods on Keith’s blog.
[quote=“cybercritic, post:39, topic:660”]
“The more I find about you as a person, from the way you are acting, the less I’m interested in the company that you represent.”[/quote]
That was precisely my intent. Keith tried to put a human face on INS. That’s a personal thing to do. What he chose to do did not resonate with me. Well, the only way to say that is to get personal about my opinion of Keith. I didn’t do it to be snide or degrading, but to give him constructive feedback. If I was going to spitefully tear into somebody at a personal level, you’d know it.
). Sure, maybe not on a span of 10 years, but let’s remember those guys have spent most of their personnal time on this poject.
