Community and I-Novae - An open letter

You might be on to something. The problem with common sense is that everybody has a different one. For example it boggles my mind that we have to go on and explain that in a company Discord for a product that has recently released, we care that new players, who just bought the game and are super excited about joining our community, aren’t jumping in the middle of a massive public flame war. We’re not in kindergarten, it should be obvious that losing potential players isn’t gonna make us too happy.

Unfortunately it seems a lot of that common sense isn’t common sense, so we’re going to have to update the discord rules to state very obvious things, such as “it’s not fine to troll or impersonate other people”, which technically aren’t included in the rules, so if somebody was impersonating another member of the community, he could currently argue he’s not breaking the rules.

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You misunderstand what part of common sense people aren’t sharing. People understand just fine you don’t want to see giant flame wars, but It’s the blame, and your solution, people disagreed on. You blamed the wrong person despite the more direct involvement of several others for personal reasons, and then tried to solve the problem in the wrong way. You had a moderator that didnt share your ‘common sense’, for instance (the common sense of not inciting an extended public argument 6 hours later instead of sending a pm). I would have thought it to be common sense to deal with that first, but that option was ignored in favor of causing more problems.

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This is not such a bad thing. I work in education, and it’s a fundamental principle that you must have crystal clear boundaries, enforcing them fairly and consistently. It makes everyone happier and improves behaviour.

I’m not saying we’re children and should be treated as such, but I do believe it’s best to spell out the rules so that people can follow them. People behave differently online than in person.

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Yes … but additionally I think it was known to most that the public image is cared about. It’s also one reason why some of us elders try to be exceptionally nice to newcomers. Not just because we are like that in general but we want to do our part.

But it wasn’t clear where the line is drawn. To some of us direct and harsh cirticism and potentially inflammatory aggressive instigation in order to be provided answers to pressing issues were more important and subjectively more beneficial then upholding a tidy image 24/7.
Especially if you consider that the majority of time we spend together was done so civility and patiently, yet while being very active and engaged.
This is where the rift lies. There are obviously some different motivation and goals besides the ones where we agree on. Still, with rules and clear expectations these different motives can coexist peacefully, especially if the needs that are source for thees motivations are satisfied.

I assume that is as an answer to the rally that happened last Saturday. I think most of the people involved were aware that a line was being overstepped there.
It was done consciously though as a form of protest and was an extreme form of “aggressive instigation” to raise awareness for the issues that are/have been there.
This option was talked beforehand and, in my anger, I was also willing to go this far myself too, yet in a more organised fashion and after all other things have failed. I am totally aware that it would have been not ok … but in the same way any protest and strike is aware that it obviously is not good for the image of wherever it is taken place …
Everyone involved has power in some form or another. You can outlaw all the knifes and guns and spoons but in the end we still have to get along as in reality, there’s never full total control.

It was not trolling. It was rally/protest. It’s understandable that the discord is maybe not a public space anymore and as such you want to outlaw both of that, if so please be clear that either are not allowed and will be curbed immediately.

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We are not trying to outlaw the dissident voices and I’m sorry if anybody is genuinely thinking that. Despite all that happened, we’re still talking to everybody. The only threads that we have closed are the ones that have degenerated. I like to think that we are pretty open-minded people ( including Keith ), that we like to talk to everybody, even to people that have contradictory opinions, as long as it’s done in a mature / constructive way. However if a line is crossed and a thread or a flame war degenerates in public, we’re absolutely going to act upon that.

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I am not thinking that, I was just trying to say that it is ok to draw lines and make rules but that the goal is to get along in the end.
The second part of my post was done out of the assumption that the new rule mentioned was a reaction to the rally.
As such I wanted to point out that, yes the rally was overstepping a line but consciously so.
Technically most of the people partaking in the rally were not braking rules, beside Lysk. I don’t know if it would have happened even if there were rules in place. As I tried to point out a bit, it’s beside the point.
People used their power to create tumult in order to get attention. The disruptive part was a means to the end and not a goal.

Because you are willing to discuss but your public image is more important then unlimited freedom of speech and expression on your platform.
And that is ok. It just can be misunderstood when one of the involved parties is the one doing the moderating, that’s why I am glad that the time has been taken to “sell” your point of view.

We are loosing ourselves into details now though … maybe I shouldn’t have answered to that one, I think it’s pretty clear now why and what has happened in some cases of the past and I am grateful for that.

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As mentioned above, the I-Novae team will hold a “Town Hall” today (16:00 UTC) and will take questions from the community. Everyone is invited.
So as everyone who might join can prepare, here is the planed agenda that will be roughly followed: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nrd7lnPDGG0n0qkL9R0cUveB0DW7JhTdktzRDXuYBro/edit?usp=sharing
If anyone can’t join but would still like to participate. Please PM me your questions beforehand so I may be able to act as a stand in. Looking forward to see you tomorrow.

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Ah i guess i’ll have to take a listen to the Townhall

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Dan posted the townhall on Youtube:

Since some questions were left unanswered from the doc I’ll -very quickly- address them here:

Playbenni: How long would you estimate would a barebone VR implementation take?

Initial investigations ( aka SteamVR api ) could maybe get a minimum, dirty version in 2 weeks ( basically just the stereo rendering and head tracking ). Making the UI work in VR would need some extra weeks. Figuring out the controls: if only gamepad, maybe quickly. If we’re talking of motion tracking, then the question is what would you interact your hands with ? The cockpit ? Then everything in the cockpit must become functional -> you easily add a month or two, plus some artwork revamp of the cockpits. Finally, the elephant in the room is optimization. If our philosophy is “if you want VR, you’ll need an RTX card” then yeah, not much to do. If however we want VR to run at 60 Hz+ on older gens, then the game needs a huge optimization pass, and that could add a few months.

TL;DR: I’d say from 1 month ( quick & dirty job ) to 6+ months ( for motion tracking, artwork revamps and performance optimizations ). That’s if we did the job ourselves. If we hired a contractor to do it for us ( to minimize distractions on us ) it could take longer and the budget would likely inflate by x2 or x3.

Playbenni: Would it be possible to have the kickstarter reward of naming NPCs, Planets etc. in sooner rather than later. In my imagination it would only take a form field on the website in the user settings and the server to load the names from a simple database.

It’s a matter of priorities. Website work requires both frontend(webpage) and backend (database/infrastructure) work. Keith would be the one doing those. But at the same time, Keith will be implementing assets streaming into the engine. We’re already over the vram budget and stuttering issues ( as well as driver crashes ) are becoming more and more frequent, which means we can’t add more content to the game atm ( planets, assets etc… ). Between these two, I think vram is arguably far more important to get resolved sooner than later ( and even then, it’s gonna take months, probably even until the end of this year ).

Follow up by Pendrokar: “& what about the 3D statue rewards?”

They’re at the design stage. Dan has been working on them for a while ( at low priority ) and the design is more or less figured out. Next step is modelling.

Playbenni: Does the engine currently have the capabilities to spawn a planet with a very opaque/foggy and dense atmosphere like Venus for example?”

It does, but the huge drawback is that the planet looks crap from orbit. You don’t see any ground details, the surface is barely or not at all visible, so you get this giant ball of a uniform color. But maybe we can do this for a single moon somewhere. It’d certainly be interesting to see how battles at low altitudes look like with a limited visibility.

Playbenni: Are changes to the flight model in atmosphere still planned for release or after? DCS and flight simulator fans would probably appreciate it if the handling was more airplane like in atmosphere and it would add another layer of depth to the gameplay.

Updating the flight model in atmosphere isn’t that hard ( I mean, if you want a proper, 100% realistic atmospheric model, it’s super hard. But “tweaks” to the current model, in particular to add lift and help ships more naturally turn in atmospheres, is definitely doable ). The tricky part is making the AI fly with these new constraints. So with players only, I’d have already implemented these changes (we kind of already had that in pre-alpha if you remember); but with AI, it becomes a huge task which isn’t prioritized for any time soon. Unless you’d be happy with AI ships flying very awkwardly in the atmospheres, constantly missing each others :wink:

Arkenbrien: “It was mentioned that the company has concerns outside of simply making the game. This much is obvious, however seeing as most everybody hasn’t run a company like yours before, what are some challenges that you’ve been dealing with, and could you occasionally include them in your future community updates?

I think I partially answered that in the townhall on another question. The main challenges we have right now are financial and organisation. Financial, between although we had a lot of breathing room with the Early access, it’s not like we got millions. For example, hiring a new programmer is extremely difficult. We can either hire a junior at an affordable salary, but it could be counter-productive considering our huge and complex codebase and the fact that neither Keith nor I really have the time to tutor a junior. Or we could hire an experienced, senior programmer, which would cost $100K/year in the US. We definitely can’t afford that. So we’re tring to find an experienced, senior programmer that isn’t in the US, but it’s not so easy. The last programmer we interviewed had a decent resume/CV, mobile games development experience and salary requirement was okay… and ended up having no experience on massive codebases and knew little about multithreading…

In terms of organization and management, it’s more or less what you’d expect from a company running remotely and with every members in a different timezone. Also, Keith spends the majority of his time simply “running the company”, which isn’t something that is immediately visible to you guys. That means writing contracts ( which often needs to involve our lawyer ), talking to accountants, figuring out taxes, doing payroll/royalties payments, answering support requests (you’d cry if you saw how many KS backers still don’t know how to get the game on Steam), organizing trips (GDC’s took a lot of time due to investigating hotels, meetings, phoning to contacts etc. and unfortunately got cancelled). I mean, the list just goes on and on, and none of that is “working on the game” - but without it, there would be no company, hence no game.

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Thank you very much for also answering the others questions :pray:.

Okay I just want to leave this here:

Venus in real colors, processed from clear and blue filtered Mariner 10 images.

:grinning:

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… as an asteroid backer should I have access by now? :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT: Yes I do, that was a painless process of getting it into my steam library… Surprised that I must have missed the update that said I had access :sweat_smile:

I hope the townhall went somewhere towards a positive outcome, not been following very closely lately.

VR would be a big bonus for me but I understand the complexities!

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Thank you to everyone who put the Town Hall together. It was great to hear the discussion.

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Listened to the townhall, both the CEO and CTO were saying the main reason people refund is that the player does not know what to do. That is completely false. Other reason you both brought up is people refund because there is no players. You are both wrong and these two reasons are really one reason. There is nothing to do in game and the game is not fun it is just empty and boring, that is the main problem.

Just wanted to voice my appreciation for the townhall, both to the devs for hosting and Lomsor for moderating. I thought it was a great first step, and I hope to have more of them in the future. Lots of honest talk! :smiley:

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@INovaeKeith

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there are games being developed for 15 years, like ground branch. with this niche within a niche type genre sims, you’re never going to get rapid development, constant communication, and huge studios. people are so naive to how game development works.

Yeah! Like the dev behind Rogue System!
Oh wait, that project was abandoned.

Oh! Rodina!
Oh wait, that project was put on the back-burner after years of slow progress and the money from sales drying up.

Limit Theory!
Oh, right, never released.

Shores of Hazeron!
Yeaaaaah, I’m gonna skip this one. A mad dev with a god complex does not a fun game make.

Void Destroyer!
Huh, actually turned out ok, but very tightly controlled scope and minimal graphics.

Kinetic Void!
I wonder what ‘Overwhelmingly Negative’ means…

Yeah, sorry, I love a few of these games and respect the effort put into all of them, even the out and out failures in the list, but I’m not seeing where all these ‘god-tier independent developers are who can build incredibly impressive projects out of nothing all by themselves on no budget incredibly quickly at a high production value’ are that you keep alluding to.

If such people and projects existed they’d put the AAA publishing industry out of business within a decade. :wink:

[*edit] Please do come to the discord, I’d enjoy discussing things with you more in depth with instant messaging.

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Huff and puff all you like, player numbers don’t lie and smaller dev teams have accomplished far more that is a fact.

Tough love reminder reading that list @Naiba, it’s difficult to imagine everything a developer has to go through when they attempt to “go it alone.”

I’m glad we have a small team of people able to support one another when things get difficult. Negative feedback can be constructive at times, but it can really build up and have a substantially negative impact on one’s own mental health.

It’s good to check in with team members regularly, (our weekly dev meetings) and focus on positive feedback that balances out the negative, as well as review the very real and valid constructive criticisms leveled at us by active members of our community.

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