0.5.1.0 feedback - Balance patch (experimental)

#1

Patch notes.

Great stuff here! I look forward to testing it…

Yay convergence!

And I’m sure the collisions will be much better. It’s far worse when your cruiser is knocked around by a tiny bomber, than some slight delays but more realistic collisions. Good change.

Corvette resupply and repair AI is very nice.

  • Weapons damage model now bypass shields (weapons can be damaged even with full shields).

I foresee some fun with this.

I’m curious about weapon groups. It will be nice to have eventually, but I feel like it’s part of a bigger thing. Weapon management/upgrades in general is being dripped in and none of it is quite working yet. I hope we get a full weapons management patch soon. Destroyer in particular is hard work at the moment!

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#2

My 2 cents on the corvette. Sorry if it doesn’t read well, I’m super tired atm, I’ll edit it later if needed.

As I and others noted, the corvette has trouble hitting targets. I spent about 3 hours+ in one, and it was at times borderline frustrating at my inability to kill stuff, let alone hit stuff. I hardly gained enough credits to cover my losses. Before, I’d usually switch to the corvette around the 300 credit mark, then make it to 1000 in about 45 minutes, then switch to cruiser and make some real cash. This evening, I only topped 900 in the vette.

Prior to this patch, my usual tactic was to drop out of warp right on top of an inty/bomber, and I was heavily damage, if not destroy my target, human players or not. The corvette’s turret turn rate, combined with good positioning and good guesswork on how the target will react, was usually enough to get good results, as the dps output of the weapons are theoretically more than capable to destroy i/bs in short order. Now, I think the corvette had trouble prior to this patch in terms of it killing, let alone hitting stuff, but with the inty/bomber buffs to maneuverability, these problems have become much more noticeable.

(Having flown the current iteration of the inty, it does feel better than before, and fighting in them is fun. I don’t think reverting the buffs is the way to go.)

Here is my experience of a usual 1v1 player fight, one corvette vs one inty: the result is usually a frustrating stalemate. The inty can’t hurt the corvette if you can avoid a few shots and missiles, but the corvette simply cannot hit the inty outside of a few stray shots. And if the inty does take a little damage or runs out of flares, it has more than enough ability to simply leave the fight. Later in my session this evening, I’d only go so far as to shoot one or two missiles at the inty, just to (hopefully) shoo it away, and not even bother shooting at it. I tried to escort a couple cruisers/destroyers, but all it took was literally one interceptor to negate any effect I had.

Once it becomes a 1v2, the corvette simply doesn’t stand a chance atm. Two intys have more than enough damage output to ruin any corvette’s day. They don’t even really have to be human players at that point.

This has been my experience with the corvette. I’m not sure how to suggestion ways to adjust it, as I honestly don’t know exactly the role the corvette is supposed to have or niche it’s supposed to fill. So far, it seems like the only thing the corvette is actually good for is staying away from fights and re-supplying i/bs. Is it supposed to be a support ship that relies on other ships to do the damage? If so, I see a gap in terms of taking care of large groups of i/bs other than hurling more intys at the swarm. Is it a gunboat/missile platform? It needs more and better guns and missiles. It seems like the corvette is trying to be a jack of all trades, master of none ship atm.

Until there are mechanics in place for outfitting the cap ships with certain weapons or abilities etc so that there can be an anti-small-ship-swarm role, I think the easiest way to buff the vette is to simply change out the weapons: swap the guns with some beefy flak cannons. Make the blasters much more efficient with a significantly higher fire rate at the cost of damage per shot. If three flak cannons is too much firepower, then perhaps add a new weapon type, something like a rail gun or something, that’s a fixed anti-cap ship weapon, designed for disabling systems. That would make 2 blasters, 2 flak cannons, 2 rails. Either way, the vette couldn’t really hurt cap ships to begin with, and I don’t think it should, bombers do that job, and vettes keep the bombers topped up on torps. Vettes still can’t get really close to fights, because they’re weak vs cap ships, meaning that intys still have to be the screen.

tldr; please give vette better guns!

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#3

The corvette I think should keep the sub-par turrets and then gets fixed spinal mount heavier weapons added. This will both make it more powerful and more interesting to play as and against. Turrets just have little player agency to begin with for both sides of a fight. The current capitals have the same issue…

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#4

Flew interceptors and bombers tonight against AI tonight. Combat environment is much more deadly with the AI changes. An AI interceptor targeting you requires your attention now. Was turning Flight Assist off when circle fighting AI. AI against AI fights seem to resolve faster now without the two ships missing each other.

Was hard to distinguish target from other ships with the thick line overlays. Maybe have the target overlay spin (JGE did this). I like being able to distinguish bomber from interceptor at range.

On the bomber, the inactive missile/torp weapon bar was too dark. Hard to tell how much ammo was left.

All and all, the changes are an improvement for the interceptor/bomber.

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#5

Ok. I played some this morning. Yesterday … I kind of just fell asleep and didn’t wake up for the event. Ha.

So. The Battlescape was pretty much dead. Only after an hour a battle started.
I grinded for credits by destroying turrets.

Sound effect for hitting turrets is nice that they exist, but it is really hard to hear compared to others. Especially when firing weapons at the same time.
Also, no more sound cue for hitting modules?
Weapons being quite easy to hit/being hit is interesting. Need to test it more in a battle to see how that turns out.

Installation turrets are Invisible. For some reason. I didn’t see a single one, be in space or planteside.
After destroying the turret, shooting it further does not bleed trough to the installation module. Can be a bit weird until having learned to aim away from the turret … especially weird now that the turrets being invisible for some reasons.

Yay. The first appearance of a fixed target info area. It was some getting used to looking at it for target health information but not that bad. Don’t really need to check it that often. Cycling trough targets is a thing now that makes sense, yay.

Yay also for being able to distinguisch target symbols from one another once they are targeted. New symbols for stuff took some getting used to, but that’s just that.
The bounty symbol felt a little like a separate symbol and not connected to something else, especially from farther apart.

Why were the missile and torpedo launcher indicators removed? I really really like those, especially as they also showed the direction where the missile launcher was looking at, additional to the missile launcher status.
Also. On the cruiser, do missile and torpedo launchers autofire now? It seemed so for me.

New large gun velocity is amazing. Feels much more satisfying. The changes to mouse targeting also helped, much less wonky aiming off centre. When zoomed out it still feels a bit off though.
It felt great to circle hebellos and pick off modules without having to go ridiculously slow or aim ridiculously far ahead.

Intereceptors have crazy amounts of acceleration now. Couldn’t really test in a fight as there wasn’t really any. Of course, comparing it to last version shows the big jump in perceived removal of weight and constraint. Makes everything else a bit tiny though … didn’t test enough.
Interceptors are seldomly hit by auttoturrets now, which is no suprise of course. Took several minutes to kill a single interceptor with a cruiser and a corvette. It even took out some of my turrets, the corvette fixed them up real quick though. Nice.

So was able to test quite a bit even though there wasn’t much going on, the changes thus have had quite the impact.


Some impressions. Including peculiar/bugs.

Invisible Turrets

Can hit turret hitbox of the turret that would be on the right big hardpoint by shooting there.

Dropped out of fast warp while in direct mode. Helmet got quite far ahead of me

Circling Hebellos in warp looking for the reactor

Amazing! broadside fight with a destroyer. Perfect parallel flying! Ricochet included. Wait, are the ricochet rounds being displayed the wrong way around?

A mine killed this guy but I got all the credit/s

Battlestar unable to kill single viper … hehe

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#6

I like the idea of special heavy weapons, however the turrets are currently too sub-par, which would result in a complete reliance on said heavy weapon. Currently, the turrets are only powerful against i/bs foolish enough to fly in a straight line at close range.

#7

What are the trails on the front radar?
Edit: answerd on discord, hauler spam bug.

#8

The corvette’s role is a resupply ship. It’s a bit tanky to survive ( in terms of shields / armor ) but it’s not a primary attack ship. Should it be able to escort capital ships ? Should it be able to take down interceptors ? That’s debatable. If you’re using it as an escort ship, instead of actively trying to repair/resupply your allies, then you’re not using it for its primary role.

Maybe the problem is that there isn’t enough rewards or feedback for repairing / resupplying, aka. it’s not satisfying gameplay on its own. Killing stuff might be better. It’s a thin line to walk on, because if we buff the corvette too much, its role is going to overlap the inty/bomber as an attack ship, aka. the “tank” role, which it isn’t supposed to be. If anything, the destroyer is the one with the rank role, supposed to escort other capital ships.

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#9

We removed many MK4s on the cruiser. Its hull cannot really be damaged by interceptors anyways. We wanted interceptors to be given a stronger role, by being able to destroyer turrets on capital ships. If the cruiser had too many light-craft defenses, this wouldn’t be possible. Even as it is now, getting close is still pretty dangerous.

This is why destroyers escorting cruisers is important so that cruisers aren’t too weakened by interceptors. Destroyers should be much better at handling nearby interceptor attacks.

It’s also why we removed the torpedo launchers from the Destroyer. In general this patch tried to re-focus a bit more on the role of each ship. Destroyers are supposed to escort and protect cruisers / carriers, if a cruiser is left alone, it deserves having its firepower destroyed by interceptors.

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#10

Yes, there should be rewards for resupplying, but it also should be more active. The bubble is small, doesn’t need any action from the player beyond approaching allies, and the corvette lacks mobility to chase smaller ships without too much frustration.
A resupply turret or drone thingy would be much more interesting IMO.

#11

I think the resupply/repair role is a good one to have, however if it only does well at that, but has a very limited ability to help take down targets, then the corvette might to be either little boring or frustrating to play, depending on what you do.

If you’re want to support a group of i/bs, they fly to you, as you’re simply not fast enough to keep up with individual player. And even then, you don’t actually do anything other than sit still for a few seconds at most, until they’re topped off and back in the fight. I don’t think this should change, as I think a 'vette simply being there should make life for friendly i/bs easy. I/bs are going to be the most numerous ships, and they need quick access to a resupply/repair ship to get back into the fight. And because weapons on cap ships get destroyed, you’ll naturally want to hang out around them to get those repaired, so you’re basically escorting cap ships, the only negative consequence being is that friendly i/bs might have to fly a little farther for r/r.

I actually don’t know if I got any credits for r/r, but there should be a little kickback for supporting actions.

My issue is that outside of r/r-ing, shooting stuff is a bit underwhelming atm, and I think it comes down to weapon design, not really a role design. The main issue with its current guns is that it’s quite hard to actually hit stuff. It was a little difficult before, but with the right tactics, I had pretty good results, but with the needed inty maneuverability buffs, I think a lot of the time it was mostly down to luck whether or not I hit, let alone destroy something. This plays into the tendency to want to escort cap ships, because you can’t do a whole lot to help your friendly i/bs shoot down enemy i/bs to begin with. It just takes far to long to kill something that’s halfway interested in not dying.

I think that if you don’t want the corvette to be an attack ship, it doesn’t mean that should be next to useless at hitting stuff, it just means that it’s weapons should reinforce the support role the corvette is trying to fill.

So if you don’t want the corvette to be good at killing groups of i/bs, then making the corvette an unattractive target for one or two i/bs to take on is a good idea. Flak cannons can do that. Not so much for the damage necessarily, but for the explosions, the camera shake, and the noise, all of which says ‘Shoo, go away’. You’ll need to bring friends. As it stands right now, a single inty has a fair chance of surviving and even damaging a corvette (killing it if it’s a dumb or an npc 'vette).

With flak cannons, even if you aren’t killing a lot of stuff, it would do a few things:

  1. It would be cool.
  2. You can support your i/bs by doing something other than not dying somewhere out of the main fight.
  3. You have significantly better odds at surviving a focused attack by one or two i/bs.
  4. You’d actually want to be in the swarm.

There may be a better solution out there, but these are my current thoughts on the subject.

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#12

I can understand the need to not overlap the roles and make the smaller ships obsolete.

What about reducing its weapon capabilities but massively dialling up the tactical support? Make it the space-combat-game healer and CC “class”.

Already implemented:

  • Repairing
  • Rearming

Suggestions off the top of my head:

  • Tractor beam - slows enemy interceptors and bombers to make them easier to hit (makes a corvette-destroyer combo much more deadly if the Cvt traps a fighter and the Dst autoguns blow it to smithereens)
  • EMP bomb - temporarily overloads/overheats enemy systems within range of the bomb
  • Targeting sensors - locks a target to make friendly shots more accurate (buffs aiming and missile lock on single targets)
  • Boarding party - get close to a station hull (or capship?) to “launch a boarding party” = damage over time to the target/disabling systems. Balanced by needing to stay relatively still near the target while launching, and making yourself an easy target, but worth it if successful.

Something along these lines would make the Corvette more unique and fun. Give it close range flak cannons for self defence instead of the current guns perhaps. Maybe some missiles too in case of flying solo.

It also then gives room to define a destroyer as the multi-function weapons platform (read: causing trouble for everyone marked red), and the cruiser as the heavy-hitting behemoth. Remove the tactical stuff from the destroyer (warp jam) and focus it on making stuff go boom. Mines, guns, flak, torpedo/missile arrays - all good.

For the cruiser, make it largely forget the small stuff. A few anti-fighter hardpoints sure, but make the cruiser all about the big, make-everything-go-boom, slow firing cannons. You fly it to assault other capships and stations, relying on the other ships to give you some protection from bombers etc.

Edit: just thought of another one.

  • Sensor jamming - stops enemies being able to target yourself and nearby friendlies, consuming energy while active. Handy side effect of preventing missile locks. Of course, enemies can still shoot at you but it would be a lot harder without that lead reticle.
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#13

I feel like the support role could be made a whole lot more interactive without introducing new aspects. Not that there is anything wrong with adding additional stuff, but repairing and rearming already has a lot of potential for game play.

Currently the support game play as a corvett is simply existing. Make this such that there is something to actively do. People could be managing repair/ream drones, selecting which ship/turret/module to repair, maybe have their own resource pool to be managed for repairing so that they are not an infinite vending machine, etc.

(Disclaimer: I never played the game, I just watch the livestreams :slight_smile:)

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#14
  • in general HUD looks much better, especially the icons, but overall its a huge improvement IMO
  • I miss the ship stats next to the names though, its kinda impractical to look so much to the side during intense battles
  • view distance for external view is cool
  • default view always internal makes no sense to me if cap ships should be played from external view anyway
  • effects look even better
  • capital ship aiming is much better thanks to the aim improvements
  • the gimbaled weapons on the interceptor feel tolerable and are a much better starter weapon, and as long as more precise static weapons are equipable in the end its a very good solution
  • interceptor thrust increase is a double edged sword for me: it feels way more intercepterish and fast now, but the scale of the game suffers quite a lot, structures and enemy capital ships tend to look really small now and the game feels way more arcady. Its super easy to reach very fast speeds now and its easier to just bump into stuff because of it.
    Can’t we have the thrust increase just below 250m/s? That way it could accelerate to decent speeds really quickly and once the 250m/s threshold is reached the acceleration dials back to what was before. I think it would be worth a trial.
  • Cap ships firing missile volleys feels quite cool, but is super anoying when I just way to shoot a mine
  • changes to capital ship weapon velocities are super
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#15

Decreasing accelerations at higher speeds was already attempted in the past and wasn’t exactly popular, though it was a bit different.

One problem is, how do you justify it ? Why would thrust suddenly go slow past a certain velocity threshold ? Would it affect flight assist off, too ?

Must be a typo cause I don’t quite understand that sentence :wink:


Is there any feedback related to the interceptor weapons projectile speed changes ? It was tuned down by 20-30% iirc. Not sure I like the change; the lead target reticles are even further away from the target now, and sometimes hitting a specific location ( ex.: interceptor aiming at weapons on a capship ) is very hard unless you’re super close. Sub-targetting mechanics is coming ( soon I hope ) so that’ll help a bit, but I’m still not sure the decrease of projectile velocity was a good move.

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#16

Technobabble :laughing:
Or just as an automatic afterburner, for example: when the thrusters are idleing for a few seconds or are running a few seconds at lower capacity, it could apply an afterburner effect to the first few seconds of full thrust.

What I mean is that it is annoying to press the missile fire button once and have 6 missiles go up to destroy the target, because when I try to shoot a mine with missiles: one or two missiles is often enough.

I think this should just be an attribute of the weapon that is later equipped, for gimbaled weapons with bigger spread its alright, for static weapons that are harder to aim it would not be fun IMO.

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#17

Played about 2.5 hours without client crash. Was some bugs. Light gun fire, flak gun fire, and flak explosions disappeared except fire from my interceptor. Enemy fire still caused damage. Heavy gun fire was still present. Play Havoc tonight. Some of the Scoria capital ships had yellow livery.

Biggest issue was the match did not end properly (see below). All the Scoria bases were destroyed but the match didn’t end. Server is up with nothing to battle.

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#18

Had this problem the other day. Flavien did some research and discovered that there was a single base that hadn’t been scouted, meaning the match wasn’t ending. We really need a notification about how many stations are left to discover.

#19

Oh nope, that one is different, it’s a debug build and those do not have an automatic ending to matches, I completely forgot about that, sorry. Will reboot the match and fix it.

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#20

Alright played some more today.

On the cruiser I noticed that the leading reticule for some weapons disapear even though just one of these weapons have been destroyed. For instance my leading reticule for Mk7 disapeared after one of my Mk7 got destroyed.

“Low Damage” warning is displayed on all leading reticules, even if some of them are leading retules for guns.

Really hard to give any feedback there as it is buried under the other changes. Especially the gimbal and nimbleness of the interceptor makes it hard to seperate this selectively.
I can see myself getting really close so that the travel time is decrease, at the same time it makes it harder to aim as the nimble ships require much more aiming up close.


As of the, I’ll call it “experimental starter weapon”. I used it now for a bit and it feels so much more … urgh, a bit frustrating to me. Yes, it does land hits but the weapon and shots themselves are very unpredictable. Gimbal switches on and off constantly as I aim, especially at close range and convergence is not there when it is off and no matter if it is on or of the shots are spraying like crazy.
It is really hard to see where you have to aim with this weapon. It doesn’t give you much feedback as to in what direction you are off and how you should correct.

In contrast with the other (pre experimental change) weapon, where you had quite nice streams you could direct onto a target.

I guess the “red reticule” should indicate when the gimbal is on. No? I am not sure because even when it turns red it doesn’t seem to be active all the time …

Feeedback! Feedback is needed. Am I aiming right? Landing hits alone is not always enough feedback as that can depend on like 10 other factors.
Who is my opponent, how big is my opponent, how much does my opponent try to evade, what vector has my opponent … and many more such factors.
We once had gimbaled weapons and they had the blibs the capitals have, that was quite clear when the gimbal was active.


As for the acceleration boost in general. I still think I prefer if, instead of tweaking acceleration, weapon speed is tweaked to achieve higher achieved nimbleness.
It’s always “relative to what” the question. Nimble … relative to what.

Didn’t have the chance for much dogfight.


High velocity Mk6 and Mk7s still feel amazing. It’s a pleasure to fire at capitals now without needing to get uncomfortably close. Fights arround 10k are quite feasible and also don’t last too long. NPCs also play along nicely and don’t just mindlessly close in on you.

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