Rocketry General Thread

Well, that’s a very solid choice anyway. Unless you want to go nuclear, and then you can either use water (decent performances, easy to manage) or hydrogen (a bit trickier to work with, best performances) - so the point still stands.

If they start a base on the Moon, I would be very surprised if they don’t bring some IRSU with them. And given how important water is, that will be the first thing they will try to get. Sure, it may not be easy, but the benefits are there, and if you have a base out there, the hardest step is already made.

As for technology, we have it, maybe for decades. The problem is industry. That’s something trickier to have out there. As the ESA talks about 2040 for a base, though, that should be possible to start it out there, particularly with more funds by more nations in space, more flexible techs (3D printing comes to mind) and better knowledge of the place. And the idea is to have a science base first from which an industrial base will grow - having your R&D in situ would help.

Why choose? The US want to go to Mars, and doesn’t feel as strongly for the Moon - after all, they’ve already been “out there”. It’s the official NASA goal, as well as for SpaceX. Europe, and I suspect Russia and China, don’t care that much about Mars but want to start to get serious with the Moon - ideally with a permanent base.
Each has to gain from the other’s efforts. Mars missions would be helped by a Moon infrastructure and knowledge, and a Moon effort by having Mars missions as customer, and their knowledge and longer-term objectives for future Mars-oriented efforts.
Space exploration doesn’t have to be a monolithic effort.

Going to and from the Moon could be used as test runs for the manned Mars mission, for service craft and the manned craft. That might be useful first steps to flesh out procedures and technology. Maybe ESA and the Chinese could work together on manned Moon base missions. I’m happy to see any an all manned space flight and landing missions, as it pushes what we know and can do further. I’m sure there is a lot of private and commercial funding to be raised to go back to the Moon. It would raise interest in the Mars missions. I’m not sure NASA has any interest in landing back on the Moon though, leave that to the Chinese and maybe ESA and India.

Anything that pushes manned missions is good with me. Its the life sciences that interest me the most, and the EVA suits design for the journey and the surface. The habitats and life support once on surface, whether to dig into the sides of small creators or use expandable/inflatable habitats. And how to survive the trips there and back in some relative comfort. Since licking the problem of gravity is firming in the realms of Science fiction for the time being.

I don’t disagree with your overall point that we should setup bases in different places, only on the details.I was just arguing that one is “simpler” and easier to accomplish in the next 10-20 years than the other. You can say you will bring ISRU to the moon, but all you have is water. The only elements you can utilize from the environment is hydrogen and oxygen. Yes that makes fuel but nothing else. That’s the point I’m trying to make. We can do both, but one has more obstacles than the other.

Naturally, this is based off of current observations and an announcement could come out tomorrow we found previously unknown concentrations of elements important for a base.

I hate to be pedantic, but you don’t use water for fuel. You split it into hydrogen for fuel and oxygen for oxidizer. You don’t get anything else…and yes hydrogen is very tricky to work with which is why I left the impression that it’s not the best fuel for a reusable interplanetary spacecraft. The SSME’s had to be rebuild after every launch because of the damage to the internals that hydrogen embirittlerment caused. A launch lasts 10 minutes - the operator needs to have confidence that this engine will relight months down the road…

Right now, due to costs and the scale we’re working at it definitely is. It doesn’t have to be 50-100 years in the future, but it is right now. Once we see the cost of access to space drop, we will start to see more ambitious plans.

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NASA prepares to unpack pump-up space podule

Very interesting idea and topic this inflatable modules and habitats. Hopefully leads to much larger modules. Although dull as dish water to watch on NASA TV. Not inflating until May! just installing on Saturday 16th April, 09:30 GMT (5:30 AM EDT). Somewhat peaceful though watching stuff get done in space.

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From what I have read, the lunar base is far more economic than a “dick waving contest”. Dick waving contests traditionally are two (or more) aggressive human variables gunning to do something absurdly idiotic on a platform that does not progress, but ego driven for absolutely no use and typically is destructive. (see: political platforms) and/or any tech related workplace (two or more alpha programmer guys fight over something extraneously inefficient because they deem their way as “right”).

Disclaimer: I do not claim any expertise in any of these topics. This is all speculation on mediums of macroeconomic, microeconomics, ecological, and spatial advantages of a moon base, assuming the stance of the devil and their advocacy via frugality, efficiency, and common sense of previous methods of trade and travel past, present, and speculative of the future.

For reliable success of lengthy travel there has always been posts (Oregon trail, trading ports of ships, planes for refueling and maintenance, even our space games there are floating trading stations when things are too far). A side advantage of a lunar base would be an emergency pitstop: parts are only 3 days away instead of 6 months. Additionally, the moon could serve as a trading hub between Earth and Mars (cit.). Communications between Mars and Earth will be verifiably be more feasible and reliable with satellites and towers (singularly supported with the energy the moon can provide). The travel distances for both Mars and the Earth would be relatively small than the long-trip to Mars and Earth for interstellar trade. The moon can be the base for resources of both planets and make the trip very short and the strain on the aircrafts a lot less strenuous. To do this, though, we need to have interest. Everyone assumes that the moon itself isn’t going to garner resources. It is all about the picture; something Musk has shown to be a visionary for.

In terms of energy, solar power will be more effective on the moon, especially at the southern pole. It could be enough to solve the world’s future energy needs via moon-extracted helium-3 for resources to develop the tech of renewable energy for Earth, Mars, and the moon (cit., the Artemis Project). ~40 some years, scientists have been working to create nuclear power from nuclear fusion rather than nuclear fission. Helium-3 has been produced on Earth as a by-product of the maintenance of nuclear weapons (remember that pissing contest I was talking about?). The moon does not have an atmosphere, which means it effortlessly produces helium-3 as there is nothing to stop it from being absorbed by the lunar soil. There is an estimation of ~1,100,000 metric tons of helium-3 on the surface of the moon down to a depth of a few meters (cit., cit. 2). This helium-3 could potentially be extracted by heating the lunar dust to around 600 degrees C, before bringing it back to the Earth, reusing on the moon for energy, and eventual Mars to fuel a new generation of nuclear fusion power plants. Even if this isn’t enough, it is still land and territory to set up these resources and bases. I am not even touching on the basis of water. In the instance we’re able to get sufficient machinery and robotics there, mining for the water may be something doable with the energy harnessed. These are big investments at first but all leaps of progress are. Elon Musk’s decision to invest in space exploration with us barely able to use reusable rockets, he sees the bigger picture: other than it being profitable, it invites grand-scale tech advancement since we are inevitably approaching peak oil, climate change, and resource depletion. Even with profit out of the picture, water may be even scarce on Earth given climate change - we may have to do this not because it’s cost effective, but it may be just for our survival (cit.).

Capitalism will also be a part of space and the generate the necessity for exploration. See: the existence of SpaceX, a brain child that has been born of capitalism and generating more capital to continue exploration. Elon Musk is capitalizing on these possibilities as they come because space exploration slow due to lack of capital. Once ahold of these resources and allowance of breathing room to build, this capital engine will start this. Elon Musk’s projected plan is to create more space involvement in everything we do (as I was saying before, the Internet constellation). Martians will be dependent on trade with Earth paralleling early America dependent on England. It will need interstellar-trade to grow (as Jeff Greason eloquently talks about). It’s speculated that Martians first product will be rocket fuel.

The lunar base will also have lower gravity will make it much, much cheaper as a launch site than Earth, once an industrial infrastructure has been established. The start-up cost will be very high (and for those who understand business, know this), but in the long term it will be profitable, especially once the price of metals and such start rising dramatically on Earth since we are running out of easily accessible mining locations. The actual problem isn’t entirely what to make use what we have. The short term consequences will be determining whose laws apply where.

American laws apply to American bases for example, but what happens when an international crew mans a lunar base? That’s the genuine question and the actual formative problem - not necessarily “What are we going to do with the moon” but “What rules do we need now?” Once self-sufficient cities start popping up on the moon and Mars, the question will become very relevant. The current UN outer space treaty is hopelessly idealistic, claiming that “space belongs to everyone”, as soon as space colonization becomes economically realistic and more importantly, profitable, it’s going to be a mess.

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About helium-3, the Moon is actually a pretty bad place to mine it. It is in ridiculously low concentration, you’d have better chance (if longer travel time) mining gas giants like Saturn (Jupiter’s gravity is a bit too strong).
And that’s if we can get the blasted thing to work, and that’s also if we can’t simply go for hydrogen-boron fusion - which is harder, but also aneutronic and boron is more readily available. Which makes for two big ifs.

Once you have water, cracking it is actually the easy part, just put energy into it. Mining it may not be straightforward, but it’s not that hard either, as far as ISRU goes.
So if you’re going for a permanent base, mining and cracking water will probably logical next steps. Compared to hauling it from Earth surface, all that would actually be pretty easy.

If you’re thinking long-term, you can even start experimenting for a lunar space escalator. We already have strong enough materials, and it doesn’t need nearly the same length than an Earth one, to say nothing about the risk to the neighbours or against ill-intentioned acts.
But then we’re talking at the very least a few decades more.

Now, for “not enough resources to run several projects”, that’s simply not true. There is largely enough resources to do anything we want, even colonizing Venus (though we may need to bankrupt the entire world for that - never said it was a good idea).
What is lacking is political and popular will to do so. And that’s where the one monolithic effort won’t work. Because different space-capable nations have different agendas.
The US clearly stated they want to go for Mars. But for the rest of the world, Mars is nice but pretty far. The Moon, on the other hand, is right there wasting away unused.
In addition, the US won’t work with the Chinese (whatever the reasons, good or bad, that’s now a fact). When two of the major players can’t work together, you simply can’t have a unified global effort.
On the other hand, an Europe-Russia-China (and probably others) alliance is largely capable of starting a Moon base if they really mean it, even without a major US effort. Europe has the tech and the resources (even with the current crisis), but lacked the political will so far, which may be starting to change. Russia has the tech, but resources have been scarce on resources; being part of an international effort would help them there. China has resources and will, and are busy building their tech base but are at risk of having political will waving away later; again, being part of an international effort would help both tech and will.
The US have the resources and tech, and some political will, but not enough for the harder task they are aiming at. But with a friendly base out there, it would become easier, even with the limited budget they are giving. In fact, many Mars proposals already had orbital propellant depots as part of the plan. Even more, a major effort by other nations would probably help them gather more political will.

The key here is, one unified global effort simply can’t happen, and even it it was, it wouldn’t be such a good idea. By having the different nations do what they want, each of the two effort will gather more political will, which is ultimately the limiting factor.

I find interesting that the EU announced this in 2015, though. It is a new director, so probably a new vision, and some techs like 3D-printing are making a permanent base more accessible, but I think SpaceX itself, by driving a cheaper space access and making space feel innovative (and fashionable) again, is a big factor. And possibly restarting a sort of friendlier Space Race. Decades after Apollo and with the insane contraption that was the Space Shuttle, it feels again that the people in the US are serious about space. The effect of that on other nations shouldn’t be underestimated.

Pic of the two returned first stages, left one blew up on testing, this latest one is to be fired ~10x and launched in 3-4 months.

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Any footage?

How many tests did it survive until it blew up? Hopefully not just a handful :slightly_smiling:

Sorry, my bad, blew up should read thrust fluctuations, I haven’t seen any more articles on the details except for the ones directly after the test, they were suspecting debris in one of the outer engines and even put some sentimental value on that rocket as it’s the first one they landed, not sure why there are engines missing in that latest photo though, more testing probably.

I’m sure @Skyentist can elaborate.

Quite a difference :smile:

I thought after reading that and seeing the photo that the missing engines had blown off, but I guess they just removed those for individual inspections and test firings.

They must burn thru money like there’s no tomorrow managing this huge project.

To be fair, NASA has been working on a shoestring budget for decades. It only cost what, 2 billion to land the rover on Mars?

Only a little since not much information has been released.

When the static fire post landing of the orbcomm booster occurred, a thrust fluctuation in engine 8 was detected. I can’t remember if this was speculation or official, but there was talk that the cause was due to an obstruction somewhere in the engine causing the instabilities. Now that I think about it, I remember reading a tweet by Musk saying there were going to snake the engine (with a camera) to see if they could find what it was.

Fast forward some time and I remember Gwen shotwell saying that there were fleetwide changing being made which played a part in the delay of CRS8 being delayed from Feb to April. The other part was a damaging of the nozzles of 8/9 engines by the ground crew at McGregor while going through its initial round of a full duration test fire.

As for the missing engines from orbcomm core, Id put money on them testing the hell out of them to see how long it takes them to fail and where the failure points are to see where improvements can be made to the engines.

Finally, the orbcomm booster just received FAA approval to be displayed vertically in Hawthorne outside spacex HQ. They needed the approval because it would be the tallest object in close proximity to Hawthorne airport. At that point no working engines will be on display and probably just be nozzles for appearances just like the shuttles.

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Mars mission by 2018 says SpaceX’s Elon Musk

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36155591

If it’s all ready here or you don’t want it here I’ll move it.

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I’m all for pushing forward at a much faster pace then the world has been doing up to now, and admire what Elon has done with spaceX, and the other Blue Orion. But to do this thing quicker will require a lot more investment on a massive scale. And to scale up all the R&D establishments (new materials inc) and construction sites, along with a massive drive to recruit a lot more scientists and engineers.

Also school and college funding & programs worldwide to nurture new talent in these areas for now and future generations. It will be our generation that gets the ball rolling, but theirs who will inhabit this space fairing future. I’ll certainly be too old to travel into deeper space, that’s if I live to 80+ years. The thought of a few days trip out to and around the Moon is a great thought, but that’s all it will ever be. But I’m confident with the likes of Elon and SpaceX, and of course China, things will now start to speed up.

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I’m not sure it will be a significant change of pace. As far as I’m aware, most of the necessary technology is already in use or in final testing, they just need to qualify Falcon Heavy and they will be able to send it during the upcoming transfer window in April/May 2018. After all, the mission itself is really just a test.

To land an unmanned payload on Mars? It’s complicated yeah, but compared to what they’re already doing it’s not that complicated. It will be done at the “lesuirely” pace that SpaceX operates at.

I have a feeling you’re operating under the colonize Mars idea though which, yes, is a bit larger of an engineering task. That said, they have a decade to achievement before they start missing (probably) overoptimistic deadlines of first humans on Mars in 2025. Again though, this is not colonizing Mars, this is an apollo style “we made it” type mission to prove that we can go there. Only in the years following will the engineering pace really kick in to begin ‘mass’ production of BFRs/MCTs. This is still even speculation. We will know more in Sept. when SpaceX attends IAC and releases their Martian Architecture plans. This will be everything you want to hear about how they plan to get there and how they plan to stay there. From what leaks there have been it’s going to sound very SciFi and probably a bit crazy so I’m really looking forward to it.

I don’t think China has anything to do with SpaceX sending an unmanned payload to Mars in 2 years. I can almost guarantee they aren’t thinking about China at all except how they might steal/copy their rocket tech from them.

I’m really excited about this mission because it’s a very important first. Only 4 entities have ever even attempted to get to Mars, only 3* have ever been succesful at landing, and only 1 has ever landed multiple successful times. That’s NASA, the ESA, Roscosmos, and funnily enough ISRO(Indians). This is very important because a private company will have transitioned from nothing to landing where so many other experts have failed and succeeded before them, with only 16 years from its inception. Not only that, the largest payload to be landed on Mars was Curiosity weighing in at 900kg. Dragon V2 is 6000kg! Over 6 times the mass of the largest payload ever to Mars…for the first ever private payload to Mars…It’s ambitious. I should also mention that this mission is slated to cost between 100-200 million…where Curiosity cost over 2 billion. The only cheaper payload to Mars is the ISRO’s MOM which put 500kg into Low Martian Orbit which cost 84 million.

This is incredible and another reminder about how there has been a subtle change of pace that has already happened. It’s just not obvious, not yet. In hindsight you will find we are living through it right now and the paradigm shift has already happened. Some will be quicker to adapt than others, but @JonnyRedHed, the faster pace is here and now and doesn’t need to wait for anything. Not for China, not for education, not for engineering programs. Everything that’s needed is here, just the will to be put into R&D and the drive to get out there.

*Russians landed 1 lander which functioned for 15 seconds before failing and the ESA landed a lander which never phoned home.

Disclaimer: Call me a fanboy all you want, I am, but I believe in easier access to space. If any other company was where SpaceX is at currently, I’d be a huge fan of them as well. As it stands there’s only one but many more are trying and that’s what I love about what’s happening. That’s where the paradigm shift is. Google the following: Firefly space systems, Copenhagen Suborbitals(I think they’re still kicking), Rocketlabs, and Vector for starters.

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The title is “SpaceX General Thread”, so this is the perfect place for it. Mustn’t let our fanboism contaminate more of the forum than strictly necessary… :stuck_out_tongue:

Definitely an interesting announcement, but first I want to see Dragon 2 actually launch & land via space.

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Almost? :smiley:

or maybe you prefer the smores version…

Imgur

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