Philosophy Discussion

On an individual point of view, surely. On a wide group of persons, you’ll notice that there are some universal principles, or natural laws. If I understand correctly, it differs from “legal laws” as they come from common sense, empathy and some of local culture. Some of the natural laws are actually the basis of some of nation’s Constitution (eg : every man is born free and equal in right).

Kant had also his point of view as how actions could conform to good or not depending on the intention behind this. And this might be a source of confusion on detrmining what action is “good” or “evil”, as we have to take into account both the action and the intention to judge. The same goes for values like courage, which by itself is good, but becomes dampered if it requires injustice.

For what ? Inserting Adolf and Joseph ? Bah, we’ve merly reached the double Godwin point very late, that’s all :stuck_out_tongue:
Besides, what’s WBC ? World Boxing Council ? :slight_smile:


Providing the very first step is defining what the system is (like finding the Hegemon), all new systems starts with:

  1. Transition from old to new system (rise to power of the Hegemon is only one step of it).

That’s probably the hardest step as both the current power and people who fear change (even though hating the current system) will resist that step. It requires both convincing and hard actions (not necessarly bloody ones).

Something to illuminate your spirit and improve the quality of your words. You should read, really :wink:

To add what Tjafaas is saying, and I think you meant “relative and arbitrary”, I don’t think that morality, in the way that I understand it, is relative any more than whether a table’s existence is relative. All one has to do to arrive at an objective morality is to observe the natural universe one lives in.

For example, is it relative that drinking a bottle of battery acid would be a bad thing for you? It seems to be an objective truth whether someone thinks it’s good or bad for them that the outcome will be the same.

I can demonstrate that an objective morality can be obtained this way, maybe even only obtained by looking at the world we live in, because all you have to do is conduct a mind exercise. Let’s take stabbing someone on the street for example. We would probably all agree that is morally wrong. Why is it morally wrong? Among other things, it hurts the person. Now is it relative that it hurts the person or objective? I think it’s fairly objective at least as much as the fact that a knife blade piercing someone’s skin will cause internal bleeding which could lead to death as well as neurons firing in someone’s brain causing a sensation of pain. This is all fairly objective from observation, not relative. It may be that our perception of the moment is relative, say if a blind person is hearing this stabbing happening, but can’t see it, and has a more incomplete observation of the situation then a sighted person next to him, but in and of itself, it is objectively evil.

So how do we know for sure the morality of this situation is objective and dependent on the universe we live in? Here’s the fun part of the mind game, all you have to do is imagine living in a universe where sticking a knife in someone’s back on the street was naturally good for the person. What if sticking a piece of metal into someone imparted a sense of comfort, didn’t damage their body at all, and actually added a month to someone’s lifespan on average every time it was done? In that universe you could easily imagine that as strange as it is from our perspective living in this universe, that that would be a morally good or at least morally banal action. It might even occur as much as hugs do. Maybe in that universe, society would have evolved by stabbing each other as the equivalent of a handshake.

I think that morality is objective when using observation of the universe we live in as the basis for it.

I stabbed Hitler. Was that a good thing or am I evil?

Did he surrender to you? When did it happen? Did he have intentions of killing you?

Had Germany surrendered? Do you believe in evil? Define ‘evil’, why did you stab him, if you could have shot him? Define ‘good thing’, it’s relative.

Who are you asking? What are you asking? What are your intentions?

So you built a time machine and used it to stab Hitler. The bad news is, that’s always the first thing anyone with a time machine does. And as Hitler survived, well, it never works. Which both explains why there were so many (failed) attempts against Hitler’s life, and why no one did anything else than trying to kill Hitler with a time machine ever.

But let’s assume that you did manage to do it. Then, Hitler never created the Third Reich, and you have no motivation to go back in time to kill Hitler, and the Universe implode under the paradox.
You monster.

But let’s assume that you manage to change History without Universe-destroying paradoxes. Then without organized nationalist extremists, Communists take power in Germany, giving USSR a foothold in Western Europe. Years after, USSR launch an invasion of all Europe, where most countries fall against the countless human waves USSR launch against them, as well as internal Communist uprisings, until things more or less stop in a bloody slog, where Britain, Norway and Sweden being more or less the last European democracies left. Then, thanks to the many German scientists USSR could get their hands on, USSR develop the nuclear weapon and use it to crush the remaining European countries.
Without a horrible nationalist dictatorship to be at war with, xenophobic nationalist American groups grow more and more out of control. After the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbour, those groups focus against those of Japanese origins, and soon all of Asian origins. The war ends with a massive invasion of Japan homeland, causing countless millions of deaths among both military forces as well as Japanese civilians, as Japan refuse to surrender until the very end. American occupation of Japan is particularly brutal, as xenophobic nationalists are becoming the first political power in the US.
Meanwhile, both in USSR, USSR-occupied Europe and the US, Jewish population is more and more persecuted as there was no systematic, industrial extermination to give antisemitism its bad rep.
Meanwhile, the US manage to copy the atom bomb. Stalin figures that he should attack the US before they can have a big enough stock to be threatening, and launch a nuclear attack backed up by a massive conventional attack. But the US managed to build more bombs that he thought, and use it to repel the attack at great cost, and launch a limited nuclear retaliation against USSR cities. The conflict continues as both sides try to rush new nukes and use them to gain an advantage, until both are exhausted beyond recovery, littered with radioactive ruins.
Then China manages to get their hands on nuke plans, build their own and use them against Taiwan, Japan and Indochina.
Then South American dictatorships get their hands on nuke plans too, and begin to lob at each-other and at political opponents.
Then a secret Italian base in Antarctica, populated by Italian scientists and Fascist officials who slipped away during the whole mess, develop a long-range stealth bomber and use it to lobe their own version of nukes on pretty much everyone, until a breach in the Uranium refinery unit destroys it.
Then a secret Imperial Japanese base on the Moon, helped by the Italian scientists who managed to flee their base destruction through an Earth-Moon rocket, develop an He3-powered laser to try and reconquer Earth, but after a test-fire slag the entierety of China, India and Afghanistan, the laser blows up, causing a He3 chain-fusion on the Moon and breaking it in half.
You monster.

Also, stabbing a given person - Hitler here - isn’t like stabbing a random person in the street. Unless said person was Archibald Hitler, accountant at the local shipping company, widower with four children.
You monster.

Oh yeah, relativism. Eh, personally I have no idea if good and evil are objective and subjective. It even depends on how you define objective and subjective. Be it with or without a guarantor like God, If you can establish rules that take into account the person’s education, situation, culture and such, is it still objective (outside rules) or subjective (it takes into account the person’s subjective position)?
Anyway, as long as it is recognisable enough for me to take action, I don’t care that much.

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Best post in this thread.

But yeah, just because morality has a lot of caveats and a lot of things to consider doesn’t mean it’s subjective any more than medicine with all it’s caveats and technicalities is subjective. Obviously in a surgery, “stabbing” someone with a knife is necessary in some cases but then we would start talking about goal vs means oriented moral processes which are a whole 'nother conversation.

The outcome is determined by the observer. [quote=“Saturday, post:42, topic:423”]
For example, is it relative that drinking a bottle of battery acid would be a bad thing for you? It seems to be an objective truth whether someone thinks it’s good or bad for them that the outcome will be the same.
[/quote]
Then they can die by Darwin’s Law. Like the church that uses poisonous snakes to show some power or other they die every now and then, Darwin’s Law takes it’s fee.

Was that person running away from murdering someone on the way to murdering someone else and this was the only way to stop it? Did that person have a deadly disease that would spread and that murder was the only way to stop it?
I can only hope you learn something. /shakes head.

You forgot the power of placebo.

No I don’t think so. [quote=“ThornEel, post:45, topic:423”]
industrial extermination to give antisemitism its bad rep.
[/quote]
That was done with the Roman Catholic Church’s acquiescence. There are many pictures with priest giving the Nazi salute. To add: The Vatican was given to the Catholics by the Axis ally Italy thanks to Benito Mussolini. That bought off the Roman Catholics. Hitler was Roman Catholic. Sicking the way you disown him.
I don’t buy your time line. Ether way though the USSR would fall apart. China would not bow down to them for long.

[quote=“Bentware, post:47, topic:423”]
The outcome is determined by the observer.[/quote]
If the observer isn’t significantly affecting the system then no…

[quote=“Bentware, post:47, topic:423”]
Then they can die[/quote]
Okay…

[quote=“Bentware, post:47, topic:423”]
Was that person running away from murdering someone on the way to murdering someone else and this was the only way to stop it? Did that person have a deadly disease that would spread and that murder was the only way to stop it? I can only hope you learn something. /shakes head.[/quote]
I don’t really…

[quote=“Bentware, post:47, topic:423”]
You forgot the power of placebo.[/quote]
But what does that have to…

I’m sorry, I’m just really confused.

I know. Your digging when most of the answers are at ground level.

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Now now, let’s get this thread back on track and not be disturbed by some yawning cat :smiley:

Let’s head into another direction for a change: is the artist the master of his work ?

I can’t think there would be art if we were the masters of our brains.

[quote=“Tjafaas, post:53, topic:423”]
is the artist the master of his work ?[/quote]

What do you mean?

No, quite simply put the artist cannot be the master of his own work due to the nature of the work he has brought into being.

Allow me to digress, imagine if you will a pond, and in that pond there is a lovely school of bluefin tuna. Now the tuna are just little, not big tuna, baby tuna. These baby tuna find themselves in a situation that demands attention, yet lack in the necessary information to understand that situation, henceforth, the only valuable thoughts those tiny tuna ever have will be limited by the all encompassing pond prison they call home.

More seriously (assuming you’re still reading) Is the artist the master of his work? Well what is the artist, and what reference frame does he belong in? What is his work, by what definition do you classify his or her work? And to what end? Is it a sculpture, painting, assemblage of varying pixels? Seriously, one should consider the social framework an artist pulls from to create a unique association of pre existing ideas before entertaining the notion of originality, let alone mastery. An artist is always improving on past projects, always feeds on new sources of inspiration, and will forever be cursed by the stagnation that past projects appear to accrue as the tired and dreary mull of life drudges on…

Sweet insanity… what have I done…