Fighters Combat

Lomsor,

“Honestly. I think it has more to do with the combat situation being challanging rather then anything else.”

Respectfully – I seriously disagree! I can jump from I:B to E:D, pick one of my small or medium combat ships, go find a PvP fight and fly to the extreme limit of my skill and the ship’s maneuverability. The challenge is there, the stress is there, the unpredictability of fighting a human opponent is there – but the sluggishness is not. I can go from -500m/s to +500m/s in a flash and 1v1 someone doing the same, all the while we stay within a comfortable <2-3km distance to each other, only slipping further than that on purpose.

There are a lot of E:D refugees around here with experience counting in the hundreds or thousands of hours doing 6DOF unassisted flight model PvP. Besides a few differences, the unassisted flight models of I:B and E:D are very close, in my opinion (personally with around 1400hrs in E:D, console and PC experience combined) comparison between the two is completely fair. Actually I:B is a very interesting study in how E:D’s flight model would feel without the “blue zone”, low yaw rates or velocity caps (spoiler: I like it a lot).

I just think the I:B flight model fails in the linear:rotational ratio of the ships’ thruster abilities. The ships turn all right but all that gives me is a good view of my opponent as I’m drifting backwards, furiously trying to change my vector without emptying my blaster capacity doing so. For me it quickly became a showstopper as I’m all about fighters, I don’t care one bit for the big ship gameplay.

I agree the solution is likely not as simple as scaling the ships’ acceleration. I’m fairly confident a reasonable flight model can be reached by tweaking the boost feature. The boost should be cheap and frequent (it should simply regen very quickly and always be available with no delay if there’s >0 boost energy available) and most of all, boost should not leave one drained of ability to fire weapons, otherwise what’s the point of getting into weapons range in the first place?

On G-forces. In design decisions, personally I would favor fun gameplay over scientific accuracy any day of the week. I know everyone may not agree, especially in the niche category of space sims. But games are a form of entertainment and should IMO always err on the side of flowing gameplay and artistic aesthetics over hard realism. YMMV.

On weapons. Fixed weapons should always reward skill – let them be hard to hit but on contact let them do significant damage.

On the flipside, missiles are a very impersonal way to remove a fixed amount of health from your opponent’s health pool. Right now I already see the game favors missile gameplay, and if the current flight model persists, I think it will become the norm even for small ships – instead of closing in for a good 'ole furball, I’ll just dump my missiles and head for the nearest restock point.

That’s one way to play I suppose, but I personally greatly enjoy difficult to aim, slow moving, hard hitting projectiles, delivered at headbutting distance.

Very curious to see how this turns out.

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Gameplay being king is actually one of the main arguments for including gforce, or an equivalent directional thruster heat system. I dont really care about realism as a goal, but Gforce creates a positional resource, kinda like how airplanes have to deal with energy fighting, gforce you expend directional energy, the other person can see how you expended that energy then use it against you to push you. People good at g-cancelling can pull off pretty much the same manuevers regardless but it very much increases the depth and skill involved in achieving them.

Interestingly, in space the gforce positional resource is totally relative to the ship’s rotation, so rotations and roll especially become way more important for rotating your frame of reference in the gforce-space. Right now in battlescape roll has a somewhat limited usage, mostly for slightly increasing your rot rate or presenting a smaller profile, but gforce would complete the triangle of competing interests for roll… and competing interests for the same mechanics create mega-depth for gameplay.

Of games that have achieved this, SC once in the past had something like this at high skill levels but it was since more or less made irrelevent. Now the only game that makes good use of this in 6dof is Hunternet starfighter really.

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I so Agree! Having officially QA’ed other space and flight games. The balance of average velocity, acceleration, target size, weapon fire rate/range/accuracy is crazy hard.
Coupled with the “expected” flight behavior /currently accepted style (ED like - some strange hybrid of quasi physics base Space and Vietnam era air dogfights. ) Is also part of the issue. Make it too realistic (there are games out there that do and they are great and not as “hard” as most think just different) and the average person does not like it as it’s not star wars / battlestar enough to fit there pop sci-fi concept of what should be like vs just modeling air combat in space as been the historical norm.
It is very very hard.
So far the few games I have played it’s in the ballpark of a solid hybrid.

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Just basing this of a hunch. I think the gameplay for the interceptor class can be improved by implementing a short visual trail from the engine.

This aids in the predictability of interceptors in dogfights. Because in my opinion the sluggish feel partly comes from the fact that there are no visual ques that the ship you are following and targeting is changing direction and therefore you will most likely be too late to react.

Airplane games don’t have this issue because flight paths are predictable.

Trails are implemented (as a HUD effect), you can edit an XML to lengthen/strengthen them.
Edit: there is a TrailDuration in ClientConfig.xml in my obsolete version (windows issue, accessed from my Linux).

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Hmmm are they by default off ? Haven’t seen l any trails

I am not sure, I think they were mostly visible on capitals at some point, but it might be due to the scale of those ships.

There are no trails to the ship’s engines. We decided against it some time ago.

What about HUD trails based on the velocity vector?

Instead of trails, I’d love to see both my own and my target’s velocity vector shown in 3d space, and/or on the radar.

I know we already have the heading indicator, but that’s not really useful since it’s not visible when it’s the most important (when your vector is not alligned with yor view).

Here’s the answer to how one can see the heading of a fighter.

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I think OP is really misguided on what they perceive as the issue that makes fighters feel sluggish.

It’s actually that they go SO FAST, they have a lot of momentum and have trouble slowing down. There isn’t atmosphere braking them. The [ac/de]celeration is actually very fast, it’s just you can get up to such high speeds that you have a lot to decelerate from.

The only possible solution I can think of is some psuedo-science to explain that: the faster you go, the faster your cap recharges, so you could boost more often at higher speeds. But that could make for balancing issues, making jousting runs too strong
But I, personally, frankly don’t have a problem with the realistic momentum.

But yes, I’m also surprised to see there aren’t heading/velocity vector indicators sticking out from your target.
I should also mention that I think moving in multiple directions should drain cap faster. Like say you’re pressing both the D and R key to move diagonally up and to the right, this requires two sets of thrusters to both be firing. A more skilled pilot is going to roll first so they can just use the one side of thrusters more efficiently. Maybe it already does this, but I don’t think so. Maybe this is a bad idea because it’s not clear like that, even if it makes realistic sense.

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Commenting on the effectiveness of the balance changes in this week’s patch:

So, what i’ve definitely noticed is that its much easier for me to get close to targets, and it does make the fights feel faster. Chasing people running away also feels way more reliable, which is awesome. I think this was a major improvement, worth even turning the forward boost strength up slightly more next patch to see if the positive improvements continue.

What i didnt expect is that this change also made engine overcharge feel viable in combat again, sometimes. By allowing the fights to get closer more often it’s made rotationals get more important, which means engine overcharge lets you keep on target easier. Last week’s patch the only valid choice was weapons overcharge in a dogfight, now once it moves closer engine overcharge is valid again, at least for inty vs inty!

Warning, autogun complaining below:

Have to take the opportunity to complain about how the autoguns scale with combat range… their “auto” helper effectiveness disproportionately assists at longer ranges compared to shorter ranges, because their limitations like tracking speed are based on angle. it makes little physical sense but its probably worth decreasing the tracking speed at longer distances. Sure there’s spread, but spread is random and annoying :stuck_out_tongue:

Meanwhile, the autoguns often feel like automiss. I kind of disagree with the accel pip’s predictions a lot of the time, which sounds weird but accel changes much faster than velocity so if there are any oddities in the pip or someone is quickly inputting different accels, everything misses. which means even if im perfectly on target and have good positioning, i miss. Overall my hitrate is still probably higher with autoaim than without, but it illustrates part of why i hate using these, there are a few times i would hit but the autoaim causes a miss.

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Hello again Flavien.
Although new to your game i can’t stress enough how much i enjoy every minute with it.
Congratulations for all the work you’re putting in, it really shows!

Now for my report, after spending a couple dozen hours before and after the boost changes, and being 90% in an INT i have to say that the small change made a good impact on the feeling of movement.

More detailed.
The close combat time increased due to being able to stay a little more to an approaching target before he creates distance and thus makes the relative motion between us a smaller factor on the dogfight.

The maneuvers (when close enough) increased from the solely circle strafe and shoot, to being able to change engagement sides ( 8 figure maneuver ) a few times before your energy deplete.

The avoidance of missiles became better bue to being able to counter your inertia faster and clear off its path.

And finally, the intercept ability of the INT inside the battlefield is a little better.

Suggestions for the next step to a better more dynamic dogfighting experience based on the before patch, after patch and the outcome of the changes.

Although everything from a maneuverability point of view are almos perfect, that "perfection only last for 1-2 hard maneuvers or 4sec of boost press time.
what i mean is that once the maneuvers over aim part of the dogfight starts, or the intercept inside the dence firefight of the battlefield your energy is almost empty.
And energy = maneuvers over aim in IB.

So, as matt said, the 80% of a dogfight or chasing to intercept on the battlefield is towards the aim side, where it should be at least 50/50 imho.

Suggestions for the next step.
Make maneuverability matter a little more by loosening the dependence of boost to energy.
What i mean is to try and slightly step by step decrease the energy consumption of boost.
I think it’s the logical step in order to increase maneuvers without altering the way combat is being played at the moment.
Further i would suggest a slight increase on the forward ONLY accel during boost, in order to help both offensive and defensive ( missile chase and avoidance ) gameplay.

Thanks again, and looking forward for all the great things you guys are working.

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6.3.0

Energy

The energy changes are awesome, not just because it’s an overall inty buff but because of the better pacing. Normally when you take a fight you will use up your energy and then you’d be waiting some amount of time before you’re back to full combat effectiveness. Now i can have a fight, spend my energy and then regenerate it without waiting as long before i can take another fight, and the effect on the pacing of fights has been really good just from the faster recharge cycle. It might even be worth reducing the maximum energy limit on the inty along with a smaller regen rate increase just to make the “cycle” faster while trying to keep the net energy per fight the same (which is just Base_Energy+average_regenrate * average_fight_length). Really good stuff though.

Edit: actually the regen rate goes too high and boost might become just continuous which is undesirable. I think the current cycle time is fine!

Turbo Boost

So, past a certain point we would expect boost thrust to overshoot just closing range and start to lead to undesirable behavior during a dogfight. I think it’s possible we’ve reached that point of diminishing returns or even overshot it slightly, even though dogfights still feel much improved. It may also be because it wasnt just a forward boost increase and everything got multiplied but im noticing some more slingshotting patterns and blowthrough escapes being more effective than usual. Might be worth trying 2.4x boost multiplier or something, or going to 2.4x forward and 2.2x sides compared to the 2.5x from this patch. Overall this still felt like another step forward though, and i’ve been having a lot more fun with dogfights.

One side effect of the boost buffs is that as Turbo Boost gets stronger, it technically gets more accel/energy efficient than Engine Overcharge… Right now, staying in weapons overcharge gives full energy regen for rebuilding boost while the player can also freely rapid fire kinetic weapons, and i find myself choosing this over using engine overcharge unless im in a very close range fight. I think Engine Overcharge should be balanced so that it is more energy per acceleration efficient than turbo boost, since turbo boost has better burst acceleration and has storage potential to be combo’d with other overcharge modes. Maybe decreasing the energy penalty for engine overcharge could make it more competitive without raising the accel even more?

optimal range

Flight in combat is feeling pretty good in a lot of areas. At this point the thing that stands out as an issue is the effectiveness of sitting back and kiting with weapons overcharged. The reason this is such an optimal strategy has a few facets.

  1. By kiting while an opponent is trying to push you, you can drain their shields and energy and be in a better position to continue the fight once they get close.
  2. By staying at range you gain the advantage of less rotational compensation being required to keep on target.
  3. autoguns compensate for some of the disadvantages of staying at range, making it more viable than it would be otherwise

Here’s some footage of a really messy fight that did get pretty short range: (the first clip in the linked video) to illustrate what i mean:

That first clip was fun, but looking at how the second clip turned out I think i could have killed both players and the CAPT npc without taking any damage had i gone with a kiting approach instead. As is, the player at 600m-300m can often apply damage better than the player at 300m-100m in a dogfight (assuming the target is dodging), but the 300m-100m zone is where a lot of interesting things happen. 600-300m should still always be viable, but it’s weird that damage output peaks so far out.

Playing with rotational velocity, accel values, and some kind of fancy autogun accuracy debuff that scales with range are all options probably worth a look. But, my best guess on an adjustment right now is to slightly lower the projectile velocity of the autoguns(lower by 10-15%?) to compensate at longer ranges, to see how it feels.

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Flavien, congratulations.
The flight model is perfect for what we have now in game.

My suggestion for the next step, after many hours with the latest patch is to simply leave the FM as is for now.
Flight and maneuverability feels and plays great, as everyone says lately.

My real suggestion is to focus on the upcoming features like loadouts, squad management and HUD.
And after we evaluate how these affect the battlefield, then we can make proper educated suggestions for the progressof the gameplay and not for the sake of just making changes every patch.

just freeze it here and work on the other features for now.

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Yeah: It is worth saying that i think loadouts or progression is probably the best possible time investment at this point. People need that progression-feel and loadouts would add a lot more variety… plus loadouts could return fixed weapons to us :stuck_out_tongue:

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OK I’ve been on the Elite side of things lately (and not even had a lot of time for that because life) but it sounds like it’s definitely time to have another go and see how the fighters feel.

Now I can’t confirm this yet, but my gut feeling advises against making the main thrusters a lot stronger compared to the lateral/vertical thrusters. I would very much like to see combat be very 6DOF oriented and I’m afraid leaning on the main thrusters might emphasise a very face-tanky kind of jousting ping-pong.

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Could we have a damage bonus at close range to make the higher-risk strategy pay off? Perhaps weapons pack more punch within 250m but damage reduces to normal beyond that.

Or instead, much higher critical hit chance with close range shots.

This would make both options viable:

  • Kite at medium range, scoring normal damage ratios and TTK
  • Get in close, risk damage yourself and more turning, have a chance for more damage to be dealt.

Very nice change indeed - the interceptor feels agile and fun to fly, and its survivability increased quite a bit!

Possible next improvements:
1) Missiles
Interceptor missilies are quite weak at the moment.
They are of no use against capships. And against smaller craft they are frequent to miss (and there are only 6 of them).
Suggestion
Maybe increase their speed/hit chance, increase capacity to e.g. 15-20 and as a counter-balance reduce the missile damage by 30-40%. Hopefully, this will make missiles usefull for a reliable softening of small targets.

2) Interceptor targetability
One very noticeable issue - people can fire missiles (and event torpedoes !?! ) at interceptors from ridiculous - 12 km. Combined with the current small number of chaff it makes for an upleasant gameplay.
Suggestion:
Perhaps, a slight decrease of the targetability of the interceptor (at distances larger than e.g. 4-5 km) will be an appropriate solution.

3) Capability against capships
There is very little that an interceptor can do versus a capship.
Suggestion
Increase the chance of interceptor autocannons to cripple capship subsystems, even if its shields are up. For the sake of balancing, this probability should reduce with distance - so that the optimum range is within e.g. 2 km. However, this damage-type should not prevent the capship from using the hyper-jump.