Elon - Musketeers

No. Objects are ethically/morally neutral. It is the people who employ them, whether directly or indirectly, that determine the ethics of a situation. An autonomous car has been created by people, purchased by people and directed by people. The responsible individual is the one who told the car to go out on the road. That person is responsible for what happens as a result.

Pointless hyperbole.

It’s not complete loss of motor control. The bridge might have collapsed onto the roadway ahead of the car. It’s an act of God that introduces something truly unpredictable into the equation. A meteor strike. A sudden weird weather phenomenon. Things happen that we cannot predict and which the driver or autonomy software must deal with. It’s entirely possible to have those events lead to a kill-or-be-killed scenario.

The phrase I think you’re looking for would be “lowest impact energy”. Safety and restraint systems will lower that energy for the passengers, but not for pedestrians. So, given infinite computing resources, the car would be doing a branching, predictive physics simulation at all times.

There are probably other refinements on the phrase that include considerations for how the energy is applied. Fixed energy applied to an eye is undoubtedly going to produce more damage than the same energy to a shoulder. Similarly glass and steel.

Again, I contend that it is not the person who arrives at the scene who is responsible, but the person who made the scene unsafe. A vehicle driving on a road is not inherently unsafe: a person illegally entering the road is. Your argument is akin to the argument that a person who got drunk is responsible for anything that happens to them. They did not do anything illegal, but it is their fault for being there, and being inebriated.[quote=“Crayfish, post:58, topic:4442”]
Although sensors and computers will not be capable of counting passengers in vehicles for a long time
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Actually, my car already detects passengers. Well, one passenger. The sensor can be fooled by an adequately heavy object, but that is of little concern in the current debate. There are not many people who will place several hundred pounds of stuff in a car just to fool it into thinking it has more passengers after all.

However, I agree whole heartedly with your three laws amended for lowest impact speed. I don’t fully understand the difference between lowest impact speed and lowest lethal speed, as to me it would be the same thing.

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The only difference is a car hitting another car at 40mph is a lot less lethal than a car hitting a cyclist at 40mph and also less lethal than hitting a truck at 40mph. The car should easily be able to decide the least lethal impact by identifying the category of those objects.

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Ah, so prioritizing the object it collides with. I suppose I’d have to see the analysis to be certain, but I can see how a few generalizations could make such a system robust.

Using that reasoning, it’s fairer to say that the responsible individual is the programmer that created the algorithm that brought the person and the car to that point. The person didn’t tell the car how to travel to the destination after all, only to undertake a journey. The operator can’t be held responsible for the AI’s behaviour, unless they take action to influence or override that behaviour (which you would track with logging as an insurance requirement).

This, to me, seems to be the more logically consistent approach.

Not really. Any product that will sacrifice its operators over anyone else in the event of a fault is not a product most death-fearing humans will want to buy.

It can try, but if an event is truly that unpredictable, it’ll probably fail. As would a human. If anything, the best approach might just be to attempt to eject the passengers safely from the car.

I’d also add I like @Crayfish’s approach.

Your second law would kill a pedestrian if the only way to dodge him would be to swerve into another lane in a location where changing lanes is not allowed. A car should be able to move out of the street if it deems it is safe enough, and necessary to avoid a lethal collision. Just imagine a group of children crossing the street, and a car killing them because its programming could not make the car go over the sidewalk to avoid them. Ridiculous in my opinion.

My laws would be:

1- The vehicle must always try to avoid a collision.
2- When a collision cannot be avoided it will choose the path that results in the lowest probability of injuries.
3- The vehicle should try to follow the rules of the road, unless this conflicts with rule 1 or 2.

Rule 1 could actually be removed, if you consider that not colliding is always the action with the lowest probability of injuries.

Also, at least in the next few years, programming a car to intentionally crash to avoid hitting a pedestrian is basically asking it to crash whenever it wrongly identifies a “puff of smoke” as a person. The default behavior should be dodge safely or just brake when no clear path is found. At least until the cars get smart enough to make very complex decisions and actually know the ideal path to take.

Once cars get really good at driving, we could go to the ideal scenario where we can tell it to choose to crash at 40kph on a car instead of 30kph on a pedestrian, but until then we shouldn’t program cars to crash on objects to prevent it from hitting what it thinks is a pedestrian. It might not be a pedestrian, or maybe hitting a parked car is actually going to send that car flying into a group of 20 people. The car isn’t smart enough to think that through, or to crash in a way it can be certain it wouldn’t just bounce from the car and still hit the pedestrian.

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Laws to prevent changing lanes are there for a reason, it usually means that there is insufficient visibility to enter that lane safely. The first rule is there to protect the developers and manufacturers of self diving cars from legal liability. Compare the following headlines and consider which one you would rather read if you were the manufacturer of a self driving car:

  1. Self driving car kills pedestrian that walks into road.

  2. Self driving car ignores rules of road resulting in death of its driver.

Roads are messy and dangerous and we will not be able to create software to safely deal with that, in all circumstances, for a very long time. Until then we need the system that gives the most perception of safety. That’s why the first rule is the most important. As soon as you have a scenario where self driving cars begin to break rules there will be cases where the car will be popularly perceived to have been at fault for fatal accidents.

I think the scenario is somewhat ridiculous. How did this group of children end up on a road where cars are travelling at deadly speeds? How did their supervisor let this happen? Would you really blame a self driving car in this situation?

Treat roads like railroad lines. If you are on them, you are in the danger zone. If self driving cars are allowed by their programming to leave the road then everywhere becomes the danger zone.

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Fresh from Tesla a new video with Paint It Black playing in the background, somewhat ironic…

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Very impressive…still looks like it has some room to improve.

You can see the image recognition doing its job on the right picture, which really makes you wonder how well it would function on a road that isn’t maintained as well as the ones they were driving on. That middle yellow line was clear as day for any camera to see, plus I’d like to see how it handles inclement weather.

IMO, Crayfish has the correct idea. I would be categorically against the autopilot breaking the rules to ensure that a collision does not occur. Even if it is like making a sharp turn to change lanes, as that manuever might not be picked up by other drivers in time. Though Crayfish’s rules do sound like Asimov’s they are way more simple. We can say that there is indeed Rule 0, though it would not have impact on the AI.

  • Rule 0 - In the event of Rule 3 being employed, display a warning to driver to retake control of the vehicle.

If breaking the rules is required to avoid collision, let the driver decide that and take responsibility.


On a related note is something that thelazyjaguar mentioned. Sensor malfunction. Musk does even mention that the amount of different sensors is to increase awareness in all forms of environments.

How many times have we heard about planes crashing due to pilots either taking a sensor as wrong or malfunctioned?

A reason I think that sensors should always cover a part of a another sensor in order to better determine the reliability of each of them. It could even help in cases of sabotage.

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Anywhere you can go 60km/h and there are cars parked. So… a lot of places. Someone crosses behind this parked car in front of the automated vehicle, which would kill the pedestrian instead of dodging because it is in a zone where it cannot enter the opposite lanes. Obviously the car would only go to the other lane if it had clear view that it was free.
But yeah, imagine a highway where you are in a location where you cannot change lanes, and a collision happens in front of the car and it sees it cannot break in time. Would it be ok for the car to think “I will never change lanes in illegal locations even if I crash and kill someone”?

Sure, as I said, this type of advanced situation would only be allowed when cars are even better at detecting things than humans, but when they become so, this “never break a law” law would limit the car’s ability to avoid corner case accidents.

But what about the boring company.

In seriousness, I hope he goes through with this. I’m not sure how many live in or have been to LA, but the traffic through the city is atrocious and needs something to alleviate it. With more people and more cars it’s only going to get worse as time goes on. If you hit it at the right time, it can take an hour to move 10 miles or less. It’s ridiculous.

In relation to the boring company, … if only Elon had some sort of strategic relationship with federal government. … He might have some swing over who gets the contracts for highway improvement… p o s s i b l y. :wink:

The idea worked for Boston; they’ve got a super-affordable tunnel that eliminated traffic congestion. Who knows, it may be easier to drive down the 405 someday.

In relation to the self-driving car programming – I am just going to drop this here: https://github.com/commaai

This is an open source self-driving platform, if any of you are curious to what it may look under the hood.

So about the moral evaluation of a self-driving car.

Reflecting statistics, nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day. An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled. This is by people. People who can make decisions that are supposively “safer” than robotics. Maybe my misanthropy is showing, but I have more trust in the precision of machines than of humans.

Reading on the speculation of the algorithm for the self-driving car, the discussion seems to be centralized on laws. As a United States citizen I observe that federal laws in place, however there are more specified laws according to the region you’re in. An example is: highways admissable speed limit changes depending on whether or not you’re in southern California or northern California. I won’t even get into EU, in the instance you drive to another country altogether.

From an engineering standpoint, lending from a standpoint of designing battlebots that are structured on a singular task within a parameter of rules, there are exceptions in the instance that a robot can get stuck, lost, or be left to operate in an improvisional mode. These parameters may not be established by “laws” because conducting the fluctuating of changes of laws depending on your region is both cumbersome and doesn’t make sense. The operative of the algorithm would be, from a very rudimentary guess, avoiding obstacles and avoiding collision. Much like a battlebot can navigate from the objects around its feed. If it encounters a situation where the call is too difficult, there is always an override ability. Just because something is automated does not mean negligence. Just because it’s automated relieves you of the duty of supervision. So the idea that the car itself would be automated to the point you just fall asleep is just merely foolish - nothing does anything perfectly and with every variables in mind of the priority of the owner and user 100% of the time. That’s why we have managers when there are people who do the actual work. Everything requires supervision, to make sure that it’s going along correctly. Even then, reading and observing the stastics of a fully self-contained driving car such as Google’s, the statistics yield an incredibly safe number. Based on Google’s own accident reports, their test cars have been involved in 14 collisions, of which other drivers were at fault 13 times. It was not until 2016 that the car’s software caused a crash.

On February 14, 2016 a Google self-driving car attempted to avoid sandbags blocking its path. During the maneuver it struck a bus. Google addressed the crash, saying “In this case, we clearly bear some responsibility, because if our car hadn’t moved there wouldn’t have been a collision.” Some incomplete video footage of the crash is available. Google characterized the crash as a misunderstanding and a learning experience. The company also stated “This type of misunderstanding happens between human drivers on the road every day.”

Given my initial statistic, and regarding how far and how much that car drove (total of 170,000 miles; of those, 126,000 miles were driven autonomously) that’s a very low number for something that just started in its first stages.

As of July 2015, Google’s 23 self-driving cars have been involved in 14 minor collisions on public roads, but Google maintains that, in all cases other than the February 2016 incident, the vehicle itself was not at fault because the cars were either being manually driven or the driver of another vehicle was at fault.

In June 2015, Google founder Sergey Brin confirmed that there had been 12 collisions as of that date, eight of which involved being rear-ended at a stop sign or traffic light, two in which the vehicle was side-swiped by another driver, one of which involved another driver rolling through a stop sign, and one where a Google employee was manually driving the car. In July 2015, three Google employees suffered minor injuries when the self-driving car they were riding in was rear-ended by a car whose driver failed to brake at a traffic light. This was the first time that a self-driving car collision resulted in injuries.

So I don’t think there will be a moral dilemma with this, on the merit logical premise that if you’re not supervising your shit, you probably shouldn’t be considered responsible for it. There’s also the realization that machine vs. human, not all humans are as precise, quick, and make the calculations fast enough not to save that life of someone being run over before a machine does. There’s also plenty of human variables that cause these accidents. Software can be imperfect, but if you expect perfection 100% of the time you are going to be disappointed. What should really matter is the progress reliability. You can be aware that if something ever does go wrong, it can be corrected, quickly, and swiftly designed better.

It’s a part of engineering. You have no idea about how a lot of variables are going to react until you test it. Kerbal Space Program rule #1 (for me, anyway).

And just a personal opinion - I do not call a “self-driving car” an AI, it is neither an artificial intelligence and if you can take a gander at the github, it is not a machine learning device either – not so far. I would go so far to claim it’s automation and a bunch of linear algebra for the majority of it.

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And that is were I stopped reading.

Don’t know what the jab was necessarily for, as it served no purpose or indicted no actual input.

But I am sure the class appreciates you sharing your feelings.

Unless you were making a joke I misses (if true sorry) Cost Overruns, the ceiling was falling and it took too long.

Another reason for the “never break the law” rule that I didn’t mention is that it’s much easier to train neural networks when there are constraints on the data coming in. The rules of the road are a limit to the variance of incoming information. The car will always be moving in the direction of the lane, there won’t be kerbs or street furniture in the line of travel, oncoming traffic will always be to a certain side.

As soon as the vehicle leaves those constraints all that neural network training goes out of the window. It’s now in an entirely new situation and won’t be able to make as meaningful decisions on the data presented to it. Allow it to leave its regulated position and you’ve effectively turned it into an haphazardly guided mass of fast moving metal.

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So I’m coming to this late, but I love a good discussion about AI making “moral decisions”.

First I should say that I believe the word ‘moral’ is redundant in the phrase ‘moral decisions’ as all decisions are between better or worse outcomes and morality is “what is better or worse”. Whatever decision system the machine uses, it has an implicit ‘moral code’.

Avoiding coding in any answers to ‘hard’ moral questions doesn’t prevent the system from having an answer to those questions. Coding the machine with indifference between 2 options means the answer is ‘both are equally good’. Even now, when Windows decides to update without you telling it to, it’s made the decision that the update is more important than whatever you wanted to do with the computer (Obviously it doesn’t know what you were going to do with the computer so it’s treating everything that you could possibly be doing as morally equal).

Eventually as machines start making more and more important decisions for us, the whole idea of morally neutral machines will become obviously absurd. That’s like having morally neutral laws.

For now, these machines are almost as dumb as bricks and can only sensibly make decisions in very narrow domains, so it’s perfectly reasonable to do as Crayfish is saying and keep it’s ‘explicit moral code’ as simple as a few ‘laws’. However, even in the narrow domain of driving on roads, self-driving cars are going to get much better at understanding the situation than they currently are, and pretty quickly too. At some point soon it’ll be hard to justify not truthfully telling the car what a better outcome is between running into a school bus and going off-road into a hedge.

Ideally I would think it would be better for the AI to learn for itself what outcomes are better or worse based on real data about the decisions average people make, but how you get enough of that data and have it be accurate and relevant enough I have no idea (other than building an AI that can consume all media humanity has produced and understanding it well enough to boil it down to a complete set of human moral values for all things that could ever possibly exist).

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Machines aren’t going to be making decisions for you. Engineers and scientists who built the machines are making those decisions for you. The machines are just proxies. We seem to lose sight of this all too easily. Of course, we never see the folks behind the scenes, so it’s easy to just say “Intel is making the decision”. But Intel is a proxy as well. When you want to consider morality, always go back to people. If you’re not talking about people, then you’re doing it wrong.

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Indeed. Morality is an inherently human construct, you don’t want your AI building its own one, lest you not feature in it in any great importance.