Permadeath pirates

[JB47394]

Chill folks chill. Dissecting other people’s posts leads to to much text some times.

So long as the posts are discussing the gameplay system, I welcome it. If it devolves into forum PvP I have no interest.

Guess I didn’t understand your definition of cargo. Just to make sure: I mean everything you load/ have loaded in your ship and not installed, when I say cargo.

Cargo is stuff that a pirate can take. If they can board and take your sensors, then so be it. The system is agnostic to that. Perhaps I should have just called it plunder.

You’re making it unnecessarily complicated to extort people. Why go through the whole shebang of carefully docking at someones ship and then wait for an arbitrary amount of time, just to then undock?

That’s not an extortion scenario in this system. I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

A pirate docks, takes stuff and flies off. That’s piracy.

Especially when the freighter could just jetisson the cargo, that the pirate then can scoop up with his ship while the freighter runs away? It works quite well in >every< other space game.

It also allows everyone in the game to be a pirate. You never know who is going to try to take your stuff. This is a system that attempts to let players know when that situation is presenting itself. It’s a gameplay design exercise.

Also why should we not be able to destroy every ship? We are talking about a ship that is fitted especially to destroy other ships, while the freighter/victim has a ship that’s fitted for hauling huge amounts of cargo. Those aren’t really known for their durability.

That is explained by a very long post in the old forums entitled Durable Ships. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to the forums, nor do I have a copy of the post.

And there is no short form.

[quote=“dekaku, post:8, topic:951”]
It just doesn’t make sense to me, to arbitrarily prevent players from picking up anything they come across (assuming that they do have enough free space in their ship to pick it up), including cargo.[/quote]

Ejected cargo is not warp stabilized, so it vanishes as soon as it is ejected.

[quote=“dekaku, post:8, topic:951”]
Wait a second. Are you by any chance implying that you physically get into another players ship, like in a first person shooter, and then grab the cargo from there? Because that means that we’re both talking on two completely different levels. My level is, that you cannot leave your ship to do anything.[/quote]

You’re far too distracted by fiction.

Dock = connect ships
Take = drag icons

I just don’t find it acceptable to take away a lot of freedom just because some people play pirates.

Which freedoms? And in my experience, games that allow piracy result in everyone being either a pirate or an anti-pirate. As I have no interest in Lord of the Flies gameplay, I keep coming up with new design ideas.

[hrobertson]

[quote=“JB47394, post:9, topic:951”]
All he wants is the machinery in cargo bay 6.[/quote]

Once he’s docked, what’s to stop them taking everything?

If players can jetison what they choose then that gives the pirate a decision to make - continue chasing the target or stop to pick up the cargo.

[quote=“JB47394, post:9, topic:951”]
No, I’m trying to describe an experience for pirates that separates them from non-pirates. Certainly it’s not supposed to shut down common actions. The use of permadeath makes for an obvious difference. Making it difficult to work up a pirate is another part of the experience. Once I got started on the system, I realized that separating pirates from non-pirates was essential if being a pirate was going to be substantially different from other characters.[/quote]

Maybe that’s the difference in our approaches. I think playing as a criminal should be a lot more difficult, but basically the same gameplay as everyone else.
You seem to think criminals should have different gameplay mechanics?

[Nos_Fi]

He thinks that there should be one faction witch has permadeath to add more thrill to those that have done everything else. I think that pirateing should be part of the normal gameplay. Better use that permadeath gameplay to some kind of special ops faction

[hrobertson]

To clarify, I’m fine with permadeath for pirates. Just not with JB’s proposed cargo handling mechanics.

[dekaku]

You’re far too distracted by fiction.

Dock = connect shipsTake = drag icons

Ah good, seems I just misunderstood your post regarding this. For a second I thought you were expecting Infinity to be something like Star citizen with its fps module .

Which freedoms? And in my experience, games that allow piracy result in everyone being either a pirate or an anti-pirate. As I have no interest in Lord of the Flies gameplay, I keep coming up with new design ideas.

Guess that our experiences differ in that regard.

Ejected cargo is not warp stabilized, so it vanishes as soon as it is ejected.

I do assume that all the jetisoning occures while not in warp (obviously) so you should be able to see it and scoop it up by using automated drones or whatever.
However, if I got something completely wrong, feel free to explain what ‘warp stabilized’ means. It’s not like stuff just randomly dematerialize in space.

It also allows everyone in the game to be a pirate. You never know who is going to try to take your stuff. This is a system that attempts to let players know when that situation is presenting itself. It’s a gameplay design exercise.

I don’t know how ‘jetison all your cargo or get destroyed’ could possibly not imply that you’re getting pirated right this moment.

That’s not an extortion scenario in this system. I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

A pirate docks, takes stuff and flies off. That’s piracy.

Are you differentiating between extorting and piracy? Because in my eyes extorting is a subset of piracy. And each extortion in your ruleset would (if succesful) lead to docking and taking cargo/plunder.

[hrobertson]

I do assume that all the jetisoning occures while not in warp (obviously) so you should be able to see it and scoop it up by using automated drones or whatever.

JB is talking in the context of a system where ships are always ‘at warp’. This is what make the interceptions and relative movement possible at high speed.
I disagree that the system makes it necessary for ships to always be in a state of warp.

For details check out the videos here Video demo of the warp prototype

I don’t know how ‘jetison all your cargo or get destroyed’ could possibly not imply that you’re getting pirated right this moment.

You’re missing the point. It’s about preventing someone who has been a law-abiding citizen and built up wealth and gear without having to worry about the police, from becoming a pirate with that gear.

JB is suggesting a good way to do that would be all these rules around cargo movement.
I think those rules are overly restrictive and have undesirable effects on the gameplay of law-abiding citizens and I’m suggesting a preferable way to do that would be to prevent law abiding citizens in big crewed ships from shooting other law-abiding systems.

Then if a law abiding citizen in anything other than the small ships attempts to extort you, you know that they can’t open fire because their crew won’t let them.

[JB47394]

Once he’s docked, what’s to stop them taking everything?

Nothing, though he has to be big enough to take everything, and word will get around that that pirate takes everything.

If players can jetison what they choose then that gives the pirate a decision to make - continue chasing the target or stop to pick up the cargo.

Okay. That mechanic can be retained. The important features are that cargo is damaged when obtained by pirates, and only pirates can obtain cargo. So if a hauler kicks out cargo, that damages the cargo and only a pirate can pick it up. That applies to all cargo, whether marked for a specific destination or not. In other words, ejecting cargo is synonymous with a pirate taking it.

You seem to think criminals should have different gameplay mechanics?

You guys still misunderstand. Pirates shouldn’t be anything, one way or the other. This is one pirate system, and it makes pirates into a particular experience. Take it or leave it. There are myriad other pirate systems possible with myriad other permutations of features and traits.

And each extortion in your ruleset would (if succesful) lead to docking and taking cargo/plunder.

That was the original plan. Pirates always take stuff, while non-pirates can give stuff to each other. As you and @hrobertson have pointed out, ejecting cargo works as a means of indicating that a ship is being pirated. It can follow the same rules as a pirate taking cargo.

I wonder how many pirates would fall for ejected cargo. Unless I could identify the cargo from pursuit distance, I’m going to ignore what he drops and instead close on him and check to see what he has. He’s most likely to drop his high-mass, low-value cargo so he can go faster (maybe), while as a pirate I’m interested in the stuff he wants to keep. So even if I scan it from pursuit distance, I’ll know that he’s just dumping iron ore.

I disagree that the system makes it necessary for ships to always be in a state of warp.

What happens when a ship comes out of warp? Well, either ships cannot interact with it anymore or it becomes a standard interactable object, like an asteroid of equivalent mass.

If the former, then I can escape from any pursuit by dropping out of warp.

If the latter, then I can tackle whole fleets with a fighter - which was the reason that we came up with a modification to the original warp system in the first place.

JB is suggesting a good way to do that would be all these rules around cargo movement.

I don’t see many rules

1. Only pirates can take cargo or pick up ejected cargo, both of which result in significant damage to the cargo.

2. Credits can only be transferred at authorized core-connected facilities. Everyone else barters.

3. Cargo can be marked for specific destinations and, once marked, cannot be unmarked until it reaches that destination.

4. Damaging a ship that is shortly thereafter pirated produces a fine for the attacker.

Piracy is really only about 1 and 2. Ensuring that only pirates take stuff involves 3 and 4. Non-pirates can still extort money, but only for ongoing extortion. The victim has to return to a safe spot to make a transfer to the non-pirate extortionist.

I’m suggesting a preferable way to do that would be to prevent law abiding citizens in big crewed ships from shooting other law-abiding systems.

I wanted to continue to allow hostilities. Wars.

This piracy system was created to eliminate random piracy. In typical PvP games with full loot, every person you see is a source of wealth. It’s likely that they are a concentrated form of weath, resulting from that player’s efforts. But just by showing up and being a better combat player, you can take all manner of accomplishments from them. Their mining gear, their exploration gear, etc. Concentration of wealth.

So this system was created to handicap pirates. Instead of them going off and building up an awesome combat rig and mopping the floor with everyone who isn’t focused on combat, they have to struggle to survive. That struggle is offset by the game-sanctioned right to take stuff from other players. It’s supposed to be a balance that ensures that all players enjoy the presence of pirates, not just the pirates.

[dekaku]

JB is talking in the context of a system where ships are always ‘at warp’. This is what make the interceptions and relative movement possible at high speed.I disagree that the system makes it necessary for ships to always be in a state of warp.

For details check out the videos here Video demo of the warp prototype

I watched all videos, and iirc only the last one, the one with a small corridor, was actually in-warp, but then again, it’s his 2d prototype so I might’ve, yet again, misinterpreted his explanation.

I wonder how many pirates would fall for ejected cargo. Unless I could identify the cargo from pursuit distance, I’m going to ignore what he drops and instead close on him and check to see what he has. He’s most likely to drop his high-mass, low-value cargo so he can go faster (maybe), while as a pirate I’m interested in the stuff he wants to keep. So even if I scan it from pursuit distance, I’ll know that he’s just dumping iron ore.

Shouldn’t there be some type of scanner? Something that tells you what the other person has loaded. I don’t know how other games employ that system, but I remember the X-Series using it, if only to let the police check if you have anything illegal aboard. And I think in eve you could actually get a container that would withstand up to a certain scan strength. So I am assuming that it will be possible to check for cargo from pursuit distance. My reasoning again being that it is in the distant future.

This piracy system was created to eliminate random piracy.

Why not make it then so that shooting anyone, you’re not officially at war with, makes you a pirate, with all those denominations like having a bounty set on you, restricted access to differen stations etc? This way you as the victim can argue, that that stranger who’s not a pirate yet, will gain too many repercussions

I find the idea of everyone being immortal but a small arbitrary group kind of silly. Either make everyone hardcore chraacters or no one. There’s too much of a disparity if you say to one side “oh sure, respawn as much as you like” while you say to the other ones “you’re getting one life, make it count”. I find this option not very appealing, as it would give me, the one who takes pleasure in hunting pirates, too much of an advantage, as I could just continuously throw myself against some pirate, until he dies. And this is something that definitely happened already on multiple occasions.

[JB47394]

I watched all videos, and iirc only the last one, the one with a small corridor, was actually in-warp, but then again, it’s his 2d prototype so I might’ve, yet again, misinterpreted his explanation.

That’s jumping, which provides interstellar travel. Warp is all the motion when running around between planets, intercepting ships and such. The first videos.

Shouldn’t there be some type of scanner?

Yep. The scan fidelity at various distances would be something that needed to be tuned across the board. I favor range impacting the amount of information you can collect.

Why not make it then so that shooting anyone, you’re not officially at war with, makes you a pirate

On the old forums we abandoned the idea of war declarations. Groups can shoot at each other whenever they like. Perhaps just to shoo away a pesky spy, or a small skirmish that develops in no-man’s land - that escalates briefly into both sides trotting out their battlewagons - only to quickly return them because somebody suckered them into fighting each other.

Undeclared interactions are much more organic.

[quote=“dekaku, post:18, topic:951”]
I find this option not very appealing, as it would give me, the one who takes pleasure in hunting pirates, too much of an advantage, as I could just continuously throw myself against some pirate, until he dies. And this is something that definitely happened already on multiple occasions.[/quote]

Let’s consider what bounty hunting would be like. There won’t be as many pirates, so they’ll be difficult to find in the first place. They’ll likely have fast ships, forcing you to go in lightly-armed as well. They won’t be in convenient places where you have lots of support because that would be suicide for them. They may well always hunt in packs or set ambushes so that they have the upper hand when they encounter a bounty hunter or bounty hunter pack. They will probably be much better than the average player because they face so many headwinds.

You might well find that bounty hunting is much more challenging and much more enjoyable as a result.

Note also that if you throw yourself at a pirate, he/they may just shoot up your ship. Your immortal character may be fine, but it may take an hour or two to get your ship back in fighting trim. They may have the same problem, though pirates may have the edge in that their systems are so beat up normally that they can make field repairs quickly and be back to their version of normal in short order. They’re undoubtedly better at living off the land.

Oh, and we kinda discarded salvaging of ships as well, because that also inspires random attacks on ships. With this structured piracy, destroyed ships could leave wreckage from which pirates could take stuff that might not be takeable from a functioning ship. So pirates have an incentive to actually destroy ships - which is a difficult thing to do. Under that scheme, you can lose your ship to a pirate, while any other player would prefer to damage it until you are obliged to retreat.

[hrobertson]

Take it or leave it.

Can we not discuss it, question it, express our opinions about it? That is what we are doing.

[dekaku]

Too bad that we cannot read up on the old forums.

[JB47394]

Can we not discuss it, question it, express our opinions about it? That is what we are doing.

“Take it or leave it” did not mean “You better like it or you better get out of this thread.” It simply mean that you can like the system or dislike it as you prefer. Nobody is obliged to play a game using such a system. It’s just an intellectual exercise. Nothing more. I don’t understand why more people can’t just join in and play the game of What If. I-Novae Studios is just going to go with whatever gameplay they think is going to work, so none of this is of any consequence.

Too bad that we cannot read up on the old forums.

There are a lot of discussions there that I’d like to be able to read again.

[cybercritic]

There are a lot of discussions there that I’d like to be able to read again.

It would be nice to be able to read some of the discussions, yes, but I have to admit that I have probably changed my opinion on some things since those discussions took place…

For instance, I might have been too harsh on pirates and other illegal in-game activities, yet it doesn’t even come close to your stance on the matter.

[Arkenbrien]

I’m fine with pirating basically being the opening to Star Wars IV.

[Tjafaas]

Undeclared interactions are much more organic

I may be picky, but I think you’re incoherent with your own arguments. How can you decide that relations between alliances, and thus the individuals composing them, shouldn’t be regulated and instead be given free reign, will at the same time hitting hard those who play a particuliar role?

If you want to get a “one-life” system, then let it be the same for all. If that long-time escaping villain goes down, you won’t be seeing him for some time. But so should it also be for the knight in shining armor if he gets too cocky.
Why not work on the ships / material prices? People going on mining should get an easier time rebuilding their lost asset, while warrior likes, either militaries or pirates, should invest much more energy to get back to their previous level.



Now what worries me more is the lore definition and the contextual definition of what it means to be a pirate in I:B.

Eventually, you’ll have 3 factions, so I guess you start as one of these guys : SFC, Deltan or Centaurian. If I understand correctly, relations betweens the three factions are a fragile cease-fire at best, open war at worst. What brings a regular guy to fall into piracy? Easy money could be one of them. Over-zealous protectionnism also. Whatever the cause, they end up hurting their own faction more than helping them.
The nastier his deeds, the stronger his ban gets until the guy becomes a painted target and unwelcome even in the most remote station of his own faction.

So the new-found pirate ends up bartering his stolen goods in shady harbors, notorious for their complete absence of law. It has some perks: he does whatever he wants and is not subject to some dull mining operation or military duty. But he doesn’t have access to the strongest and latest technology of his faction, must hunt / extort to get fundings and is constantly being stalked when outside the “lawless territory”. His new home is not really a faction, more of a patchwork of individualist thugs with similar desires.

If my description is close enough to what you have in mind, @JB47394, then a pirate system may work out, mostly any system I guess.
But if you’re making the “pirate slot” for a given account automatically spawning at the pirate haven at the beginning, then this means you’re eluding all the steps that defined how the pirate came to be in the first place. And make the pirates a faction of their own.

I really don’t see that last suggestion happening.

[hrobertson]

I-Novae Studios is just going to go with whatever gameplay they think is going to work, so none of this is of any consequence.

Of course ultimately the guys will decide what gameplay mechanics to implement, but we are certainly providing them with food for thought.
Having a bunch of people thrash out ideas on the forum and develop really well fleshed out concepts that have withstood a lot of challenges and questioning is something the developers will surely benefit from.

@Tjafaas, I totally agree.

[Runiat]

Oh, and we kinda discarded salvaging of ships as well, because that also inspires random attacks on ships. With this structured piracy, destroyed ships could leave wreckage from which pirates could take stuff that might not be takeable from a functioning ship. So pirates have an incentive to actually destroy ships - which is a difficult thing to do. Under that scheme, you can lose your ship to a pirate, while any other player would prefer to damage it until you are obliged to retreat.

Wait, what?

So in order to prevent random attacks of piracy from being too infuriating, you’re going to set up a system to actually reward pirates for spending half an hour* pounding away at an already crippled ship until killing it?

Sounds like great fun. Especially for the victim. Not at all ragequit inducing.

*) Could be more (but that’d cause even more ragequits), could be less (but that’d further reduce your chances of getting help in time).

[JB47394]

How can you decide that relations between alliances, and thus the individuals composing them, shouldn’t be regulated and instead be given free reign, will at the same time hitting hard those who play a particuliar role?

Non-pirates are certainly regulated. The gameplay governing non-pirates is delicately balanced. Pirates are regulated as they are because they dip into dangerous waters - random attacks. Because we don’t want everyone attacking everyone else at random, piracy has different rules.

[quote=“Tjafaas, post:25, topic:951”]
Why not work on the ships / material prices? People going on mining should get an easier time rebuilding their lost asset, while warrior likes, either militaries or pirates, should invest much more energy to get back to their previous level.[/quote]

Work up a design and present it.

Personally, I don’t go near anything related to money for balance. Players will max/min money and then use it however they like. Then warriors will complain about how they are forced to grind mining in order to get better combat gear.

If you were to say that miners mine to get better mining gear and that they can do that faster than warriors who wage war to get better warrior gear, then I might think you had something.

So in order to prevent random attacks of piracy from being too infuriating, you’re going to set up a system to actually reward pirates for spending half an hour* pounding away at an already crippled ship until killing it?

1. They’re pirates. They’re supposed to be really nasty. But they’re also supposed to be rare.

2. Ships may be crippled, but they aren’t stopped. So that’s half an hour of running across the galaxy without ever finding a safe port, friends or NPC police. Not gonna happen.

3. Pirates don’t follow the rules of non-pirates. That’s the point of this stuff. So if we want, pirates can have gear and techniques to one-shot a ship and destroy it. Gear and techniques that right-thinking people don’t use. Perhaps they have nukes, lending particular weight to their threats. Getting to the point of being able to use a nuke may be very tough. It may require some serious black market connections.

4. Pirates can become the salvagers of the game. If a ship is destroyed, pirates will be very interested in it because they don’t care whose ship it is. It could also be a great place to set up an ambush on the owner’s salvagers.

If my description is close enough to what you have in mind, @JB47394, then a pirate system may work out, mostly any system I guess.

If you want that fiction, that’s fine by me.

His new home is not really a faction, more of a patchwork of individualist thugs with similar desires.

What’s the difference in gameplay terms?

[Tjafaas]

What’s the difference in gameplay terms?

It’s both design and gameplay. Proposing a pirate faction from the start means you have to get the ship designs, for all categories, plus the harbors, plus the lore, etc.
Having to make 3 faction distinct between themselves is already quite a job. And we can see that Centauran faction is already a stretch goal.

If you start as one of the 3 faction and make your own “way” to piracy, this means you’re still somehow connected to your starting home. One way of doing that would be that you keep the ship’s design of your original faction, with maybe small variations because some parts are harder to smuggle out or you had to work with the available junk.
Because of that, there’s no real “pirate” identity, nor hierarchy.

On the contrary, making a faction often means you have a hierarchy, even if it’s by means of blood, poison or scheming. Something like raiders in “Mad Max 3”, or even better, Dark Eldars of WarHammer 40K if that rings any bell.

The story fiction justifies the gameplay this way. Anyone can become a pirate and has access to the “piracy” actions. Making a faction mainly means no one except them sould be able to make “piracy” actions.

Work up a design and present it.

I will certainly think of something. Not necessarly with a “one-life” system, though this has a great advantage of being a natural gold-sinker in an economy where products and money are ever-growing.

[JB47394]

It’s both design and gameplay.

I think those were all design differences. The gameplay is not affected. The player’s perceptions of a pirate will certainly be affected by the stuff that you’re talking about, but the gameplay can work either for creating a distinct faction or for drawing from existing factions.

I never seriously considered pirates as a peer of the three that Flavien originally planned. Pirates are people taken from those factions who have ships and gear taken from those factions and who continue to take stuff from those factions. I consider them to be so isolated from the other factions that they are almost a cult, a group like Firefly’s Reavers. I’d love it if a pirate ship’s engines kicked out great gouts of smoke when in atmosphere and their ships were badly maintained.