Community and I-Novae - An open letter

Deteriorating relations and failing communication

This is the only section I’m even remotely interested in talking about as someone who only ever pops into the discord a few times each year.

But I think a good chunk of you guys are stuck in your own echo chamber of having genuinely think nothing said in the Discord (and at times forums) was wrong. Taken as

INOAVE can’t take criticism.

Meanwhile in the back of my head I’m trying to figure out how people justify the blatant if not downright daily harassment they’ve been more or less impressively dealing with. I wouldn’t even blame them if they pulled one of those kickstarters where the guy just runs with the money moves. So to say, I’m not alright with the idea of the letter basically pinning all the blame on the Devs. Emphasized by the line

We see through the facade

I get that we’re all (Or once were) passionate about the game, and plenty of folks who were on the forums I never even talked on, just lurked every so often, created stuff for the game. It’s part of why I invested money, because I don’t have any technical skills to offer in the realms of computers.

But you honestly probably don’t even see the irony, of how you complaining about INS

Driving us away

can literally be reverse unoed back at quite a few in your letter signing. I myself more or less stopped interacting outside of my quarterly outbursts because of this supposedly caring community. But you know, whatever, the people who voice dissent in opposition of this letter are more or less gone from the community anyways.

Some of you are going to ask for examples. I’m not obsessive enough to care anymore. Just scroll up through the years worth of 24/7 arguments and if you can’t find anything wrong, then great.

As far as I’m concerned, this game died 2 years ago, and I don’t see it ever becoming even semi-popular enough to just do non event games. But hopefully they can reuse everything more or less, to try some other approach in the future. As for this letter? Just seems like more trying to kick them in the face while they’re down, as per usual.

I don’t think they are down, just super tight on budget and time. A lot of people have not given up on this game and this is why they cared and created the letter. But If you have that view of Inovae your perception of this letter certainly makes sense.
My personal hope is that once the time comes to tighten up the gameplay and add progression and other rentention mechanics people will start playing again and keep playing. Theres nothing fundamentally wrong with the game, It can still become a big success If the gameplay mechanics are completed and done well. One of the more uplifting news that came out of all of this, is the news that they are looking for an additional developer!

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Just to clarify, kreydis has already voiced his opinion on the topic quite a bit which was not obvious to me until yesterday when i dug through the logs and realized he’s been going by two names. He’s the HOLY RELIC guy on discord that was originally there goading coach into kicking critic and helped create this situation. And now you’re here goading the devs to “take the money and run?” hmmmm, looks like you just cant resist huh, what are you, a shoulder devil?

To summarize his opinion which he has not stated in full here, he wants several people including me, crayfish and playbenni banned, basically his list of people he wants banned expands every time a person disagrees with him in the discord.

For someone who has such strong opinions about how such a large percentage of the vet community should be banned it’s strange to see you basically just saying the game already died years ago and you have no interest in it, and yet when critic says something less severe thats supposed to be harrassement? Even Coach has mentioned he agrees at least with the content of the letter. Im not sure why you think you even know what’s happening since you admitted yourself you don’t pay attention to the project, you just show up rarely to start attacking the active members.

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No, you Critic and a few of your friends have been constant nuisances to this games community. And as predicted you bit into the bait. You’re literally incapable of not screeching. And it’s no fucking secret that I’m Holy relic, the entire joke was the picture of Huck.

And no, just you and critic need to just go forever, and I’m sure most of the bullshit would stop honestly. But it’s not going to happen because the ‘vets’ are clearly helping solve the problems, when you’re driving away just as many if not more people then the supposed staff are.

You lot literally never take responsibility, and now you’re mob mentalitying the devs. Have your discord. I really don’t care. Discords are all toxic as far as I care. This forum was far less toxic, and more constructive, but there was a pattern on here as well. Whenever you or Critic ever showed up, people stopped talking (Or worse, started throwing fits, because you baited people into arguing with your childish nonsense.), because all you ever did was shut people down.

And yeah, let the devs fucking run if they don’t want to deal with this bullshit anymore. It’s still a far better ‘game’ then 95% of the hot garbage that kickstarted put out. It’s functional and actually works. But we both know they damn well won’t.

If you wanted an honest to god open letter you guys would’ve stated out of it. This is just another long line of power moves you’ve all done to bully your way into proving your ‘right’, when there’s plenty of people like me who are fucking sick of you all.

You want a good community and good dialogue? Look in the god damn mirror before you start throwing shit at Flaven Kieth and everyone else.

You want a good community and dialogue? Where are literally any names of players who’ve butted heads with you? Not on there, because you chased them away. Not me, because I’m not a community member despite being hyper active the first year or two after the kickstarter.

You’re literally just an echo chamber. You’re not worth listening to, any of you.

As for who You is, figure it out. I don’t care enough to spoonfeed you anymore matt. Have fun dissecting this post and pretending like anyone outside of your group gives a damn.

My advice is for them to just go back to the monthly newsletters and just cut out the discord entirely. At least on Discus they can filter the spam from the stuff they need to actually create the game if you folks have any actual hope left.

One just has to scroll through your post history on the forum to see that the only person here in this thread that constantly picks fights with newcomers and oldtimers alike is you, buddy.
You routinely escalate things and then blast people with with comments to basically shut up.
If you don’t believe me just read through your post history and do some self reflecting.

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Thanks for replying to the letter Flavien. I hope we can touch on a few topics on Sunday.

Specifically how clear and direct communication is. I think often people would like to be hyped for the next thing but don’t really know what’s up next. Only really the super lurkers that read everything you share get wind of it … maybe that’s a luxus problem, it might be.
I just remembered that almost every patch I was suprised by what got implemented and it was often much more then I expected. Maybe that’s a good or a bad thing … anyway.

What I personally feel like is more important to know is which topics are locked down and which you are open to discuss. I am grateful that you sometimes ask us directly about certain topics and in these cases there almost never is any ambiguity in what is expected from eachother … but there are many more topics we are passionate and get worked up about.
Maybe we shouldn’t, but at the same time we see that some of our suggestions get implemented and used, even if they weren’t specifically asked for.

I can see that all that is probably related to not really having time to engage with what multiple people bring up over the weeks, which is totally understandable. We notice most of what is written is being read and we are really grateful for that and not taken as granted at all but in a way that’s part of the issue, that we know it is being read, heard and used.

This creates following perception: We see we can help with our feedback and criticism but we don’t know how much or if it is even doing any good. Sometimes you step in and hint or say that a topic is out of scope but much less often it is being made clear that a topic is locked down and unlikely to change and that we should please trust you guys to make it right. Often the contrary is done and it is instead said that it will be worked on down the line.
This probably creates the perception that, all the feedback is appreciated, no matter how it is formulated and how (too) far and too long it goes on about.
It’s ok to just say “no, just trust us on this”. Honestly, I am kind of begging for it for a while. I hope we find a way to bring that in somehow without taking any or much of any resources.

Maybe that is just my perception though and it is less of an issue for others. I can’t think of many other reasons why some topics are rolled up again and again or go on for much too long though.

Another example is the “criticism” vs “environment”. Partially the topic that now seems to have been somewhat resolved. We heard many times that there’s no problem with taking criticism, as I laid out just now though, I think most of us get that you are open to feedback and criticism. But even then there’s always a limit.

Somewhat related to this but also as an answer to Kreydis …
Kreydis might argue that we all were assholes for not magically knowing that the limit was long overstepped.
In my many years of learning about myself one of the big things I did learn is that nobody can know yourself better than yourself. It’s mostly on you to mark out what your limits are and pointing at “common sense” never helped me overcome or understand any social issues.

My wife comes from a different country, has different language, different culture, different believes then me … there were many times where she was hurt because I did or acted against some way that she was expecting to be common sense.
Gladly we were able to take the time to talk to each other and say what we are ok with and what not and where the limits lie …

Expecting to run the Discord and have everyone not overstepping each others limits, despite everyone being different and having different perception and limits and understanding of words and “common sense” will eventually fail in my opinion.
Sure there are some people that even if you have the best possible communication and gave them the chance to get along with each-other will still not honour the rules and limits that have been agreed upon.
Going around and pointing at people putting blame on them is not the most optimal solution in my opinion. Purging everyone who oversteps limits without first checking if the environment is there to give people the chance to honour those limits isn’t optimal either.

And I feel really disheartened that we are thrown into one pot by you Kreydis and that this whole effort, that took more then a month to prepare, is supposedly not much more then an attack at INS and some power play. We all came here because we think there are issues and we want to work on them together. Focusing on blame is not productive and we all chose to not do it as much as possible.

C’mon man. We both were cheering for Huck just a few years ago. What happened?
I am sorry that the reason you were driven away was partially the community. Lets fix that … or at least for everyone still here and new that will come.


Thanks, will note it when I write the agenda tomorrow.

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You might be on to something. The problem with common sense is that everybody has a different one. For example it boggles my mind that we have to go on and explain that in a company Discord for a product that has recently released, we care that new players, who just bought the game and are super excited about joining our community, aren’t jumping in the middle of a massive public flame war. We’re not in kindergarten, it should be obvious that losing potential players isn’t gonna make us too happy.

Unfortunately it seems a lot of that common sense isn’t common sense, so we’re going to have to update the discord rules to state very obvious things, such as “it’s not fine to troll or impersonate other people”, which technically aren’t included in the rules, so if somebody was impersonating another member of the community, he could currently argue he’s not breaking the rules.

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You misunderstand what part of common sense people aren’t sharing. People understand just fine you don’t want to see giant flame wars, but It’s the blame, and your solution, people disagreed on. You blamed the wrong person despite the more direct involvement of several others for personal reasons, and then tried to solve the problem in the wrong way. You had a moderator that didnt share your ‘common sense’, for instance (the common sense of not inciting an extended public argument 6 hours later instead of sending a pm). I would have thought it to be common sense to deal with that first, but that option was ignored in favor of causing more problems.

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This is not such a bad thing. I work in education, and it’s a fundamental principle that you must have crystal clear boundaries, enforcing them fairly and consistently. It makes everyone happier and improves behaviour.

I’m not saying we’re children and should be treated as such, but I do believe it’s best to spell out the rules so that people can follow them. People behave differently online than in person.

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Yes … but additionally I think it was known to most that the public image is cared about. It’s also one reason why some of us elders try to be exceptionally nice to newcomers. Not just because we are like that in general but we want to do our part.

But it wasn’t clear where the line is drawn. To some of us direct and harsh cirticism and potentially inflammatory aggressive instigation in order to be provided answers to pressing issues were more important and subjectively more beneficial then upholding a tidy image 24/7.
Especially if you consider that the majority of time we spend together was done so civility and patiently, yet while being very active and engaged.
This is where the rift lies. There are obviously some different motivation and goals besides the ones where we agree on. Still, with rules and clear expectations these different motives can coexist peacefully, especially if the needs that are source for thees motivations are satisfied.

I assume that is as an answer to the rally that happened last Saturday. I think most of the people involved were aware that a line was being overstepped there.
It was done consciously though as a form of protest and was an extreme form of “aggressive instigation” to raise awareness for the issues that are/have been there.
This option was talked beforehand and, in my anger, I was also willing to go this far myself too, yet in a more organised fashion and after all other things have failed. I am totally aware that it would have been not ok … but in the same way any protest and strike is aware that it obviously is not good for the image of wherever it is taken place …
Everyone involved has power in some form or another. You can outlaw all the knifes and guns and spoons but in the end we still have to get along as in reality, there’s never full total control.

It was not trolling. It was rally/protest. It’s understandable that the discord is maybe not a public space anymore and as such you want to outlaw both of that, if so please be clear that either are not allowed and will be curbed immediately.

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We are not trying to outlaw the dissident voices and I’m sorry if anybody is genuinely thinking that. Despite all that happened, we’re still talking to everybody. The only threads that we have closed are the ones that have degenerated. I like to think that we are pretty open-minded people ( including Keith ), that we like to talk to everybody, even to people that have contradictory opinions, as long as it’s done in a mature / constructive way. However if a line is crossed and a thread or a flame war degenerates in public, we’re absolutely going to act upon that.

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I am not thinking that, I was just trying to say that it is ok to draw lines and make rules but that the goal is to get along in the end.
The second part of my post was done out of the assumption that the new rule mentioned was a reaction to the rally.
As such I wanted to point out that, yes the rally was overstepping a line but consciously so.
Technically most of the people partaking in the rally were not braking rules, beside Lysk. I don’t know if it would have happened even if there were rules in place. As I tried to point out a bit, it’s beside the point.
People used their power to create tumult in order to get attention. The disruptive part was a means to the end and not a goal.

Because you are willing to discuss but your public image is more important then unlimited freedom of speech and expression on your platform.
And that is ok. It just can be misunderstood when one of the involved parties is the one doing the moderating, that’s why I am glad that the time has been taken to “sell” your point of view.

We are loosing ourselves into details now though … maybe I shouldn’t have answered to that one, I think it’s pretty clear now why and what has happened in some cases of the past and I am grateful for that.

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As mentioned above, the I-Novae team will hold a “Town Hall” today (16:00 UTC) and will take questions from the community. Everyone is invited.
So as everyone who might join can prepare, here is the planed agenda that will be roughly followed: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nrd7lnPDGG0n0qkL9R0cUveB0DW7JhTdktzRDXuYBro/edit?usp=sharing
If anyone can’t join but would still like to participate. Please PM me your questions beforehand so I may be able to act as a stand in. Looking forward to see you tomorrow.

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Ah i guess i’ll have to take a listen to the Townhall

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Dan posted the townhall on Youtube:

Since some questions were left unanswered from the doc I’ll -very quickly- address them here:

Playbenni: How long would you estimate would a barebone VR implementation take?

Initial investigations ( aka SteamVR api ) could maybe get a minimum, dirty version in 2 weeks ( basically just the stereo rendering and head tracking ). Making the UI work in VR would need some extra weeks. Figuring out the controls: if only gamepad, maybe quickly. If we’re talking of motion tracking, then the question is what would you interact your hands with ? The cockpit ? Then everything in the cockpit must become functional -> you easily add a month or two, plus some artwork revamp of the cockpits. Finally, the elephant in the room is optimization. If our philosophy is “if you want VR, you’ll need an RTX card” then yeah, not much to do. If however we want VR to run at 60 Hz+ on older gens, then the game needs a huge optimization pass, and that could add a few months.

TL;DR: I’d say from 1 month ( quick & dirty job ) to 6+ months ( for motion tracking, artwork revamps and performance optimizations ). That’s if we did the job ourselves. If we hired a contractor to do it for us ( to minimize distractions on us ) it could take longer and the budget would likely inflate by x2 or x3.

Playbenni: Would it be possible to have the kickstarter reward of naming NPCs, Planets etc. in sooner rather than later. In my imagination it would only take a form field on the website in the user settings and the server to load the names from a simple database.

It’s a matter of priorities. Website work requires both frontend(webpage) and backend (database/infrastructure) work. Keith would be the one doing those. But at the same time, Keith will be implementing assets streaming into the engine. We’re already over the vram budget and stuttering issues ( as well as driver crashes ) are becoming more and more frequent, which means we can’t add more content to the game atm ( planets, assets etc… ). Between these two, I think vram is arguably far more important to get resolved sooner than later ( and even then, it’s gonna take months, probably even until the end of this year ).

Follow up by Pendrokar: “& what about the 3D statue rewards?”

They’re at the design stage. Dan has been working on them for a while ( at low priority ) and the design is more or less figured out. Next step is modelling.

Playbenni: Does the engine currently have the capabilities to spawn a planet with a very opaque/foggy and dense atmosphere like Venus for example?”

It does, but the huge drawback is that the planet looks crap from orbit. You don’t see any ground details, the surface is barely or not at all visible, so you get this giant ball of a uniform color. But maybe we can do this for a single moon somewhere. It’d certainly be interesting to see how battles at low altitudes look like with a limited visibility.

Playbenni: Are changes to the flight model in atmosphere still planned for release or after? DCS and flight simulator fans would probably appreciate it if the handling was more airplane like in atmosphere and it would add another layer of depth to the gameplay.

Updating the flight model in atmosphere isn’t that hard ( I mean, if you want a proper, 100% realistic atmospheric model, it’s super hard. But “tweaks” to the current model, in particular to add lift and help ships more naturally turn in atmospheres, is definitely doable ). The tricky part is making the AI fly with these new constraints. So with players only, I’d have already implemented these changes (we kind of already had that in pre-alpha if you remember); but with AI, it becomes a huge task which isn’t prioritized for any time soon. Unless you’d be happy with AI ships flying very awkwardly in the atmospheres, constantly missing each others :wink:

Arkenbrien: “It was mentioned that the company has concerns outside of simply making the game. This much is obvious, however seeing as most everybody hasn’t run a company like yours before, what are some challenges that you’ve been dealing with, and could you occasionally include them in your future community updates?

I think I partially answered that in the townhall on another question. The main challenges we have right now are financial and organisation. Financial, between although we had a lot of breathing room with the Early access, it’s not like we got millions. For example, hiring a new programmer is extremely difficult. We can either hire a junior at an affordable salary, but it could be counter-productive considering our huge and complex codebase and the fact that neither Keith nor I really have the time to tutor a junior. Or we could hire an experienced, senior programmer, which would cost $100K/year in the US. We definitely can’t afford that. So we’re tring to find an experienced, senior programmer that isn’t in the US, but it’s not so easy. The last programmer we interviewed had a decent resume/CV, mobile games development experience and salary requirement was okay… and ended up having no experience on massive codebases and knew little about multithreading…

In terms of organization and management, it’s more or less what you’d expect from a company running remotely and with every members in a different timezone. Also, Keith spends the majority of his time simply “running the company”, which isn’t something that is immediately visible to you guys. That means writing contracts ( which often needs to involve our lawyer ), talking to accountants, figuring out taxes, doing payroll/royalties payments, answering support requests (you’d cry if you saw how many KS backers still don’t know how to get the game on Steam), organizing trips (GDC’s took a lot of time due to investigating hotels, meetings, phoning to contacts etc. and unfortunately got cancelled). I mean, the list just goes on and on, and none of that is “working on the game” - but without it, there would be no company, hence no game.

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Thank you very much for also answering the others questions :pray:.

Okay I just want to leave this here:

Venus in real colors, processed from clear and blue filtered Mariner 10 images.

:grinning:

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… as an asteroid backer should I have access by now? :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT: Yes I do, that was a painless process of getting it into my steam library… Surprised that I must have missed the update that said I had access :sweat_smile:

I hope the townhall went somewhere towards a positive outcome, not been following very closely lately.

VR would be a big bonus for me but I understand the complexities!

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Thank you to everyone who put the Town Hall together. It was great to hear the discussion.

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Listened to the townhall, both the CEO and CTO were saying the main reason people refund is that the player does not know what to do. That is completely false. Other reason you both brought up is people refund because there is no players. You are both wrong and these two reasons are really one reason. There is nothing to do in game and the game is not fun it is just empty and boring, that is the main problem.

Just wanted to voice my appreciation for the townhall, both to the devs for hosting and Lomsor for moderating. I thought it was a great first step, and I hope to have more of them in the future. Lots of honest talk! :smiley:

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